If we at TMO were going to advertise for new members, what would we say?
quote: April 15, 2005
I run an online community called Barbelith. Or to put that another way, I maintain the software and the community - for the most part - runs itself. This community doesn't have an over-arching mission or subject that everyone talks about - although there are sections on philosophy, science, mysticism, politics, literature (and many more). But the attitude and approach is the most important thing about the board - it endeavours (and in places succeeds) in being a place where you can have some of the highest quality discussions online with people who are prepared to engage and interrogate without being insulting. Members of the board tend towards the left or towards libertarianism, tend towards atheism or mysticism and are a real mix of creative individuals - from university lecturers, psychologists, artists, screen-writers, novelists... I think it gets its value from having such a lot of different perspectives able to work and engage with each other - and I like the fact that the various forums within it have incredibly distinct atmospheres while still allowing people to cross-polonate and move between its various areas. That's not to say it's perfect, by any means. Not every conversation goes brilliantly and not every thread is as engaging and thorough. But when it's good, it's really really good.
One area of the board that I really think could do with more rigor and more enthusiasm is around the area of science and technology. The culture is a little too heavily weighted towards philosophers, social scientists and humanities graduates at the moment, and I think it could really benefit from having other perspectives and knowledge of the kinds of innovations and developments that you can read about in publications like New Scientist or on Slashdot or Boing Boing, Pasta and Vinegar or We Make Money Not Art.
So I'm putting out a call for renaissance geeks, scientists, webloggers and technologists with a wide range of interests to come and join our little community. I'm looking for a group of twenty or thirty people who could really take hold of the Laboratory forum and push it in exciting areas - and who think they could use the extraordinary enthusiasm and multiplicity of perspectives from the rest of the board as personal inspiration.
The board's membership at the moment is highly limited and pretty much invitation-only, so if you're interested in joining then let me know by e-mail - my address as ever is tom@ and then plasticbag.org. If you could put in a few lines about the work you do and about your interest in science and technology that will make everything easier (and I'm afraid I really need people to have work or university or personal domain-name-based e-mail addresses - no gmail or hotmail ones will work). And as soon as I've got a decent number of people, I'll send out an invitiation to all of you at once.
If you are not a technologist or scientist and still want to join then don't despair. There is another approach to getting on the board at the moment as outlined in this thread: The practical facts about our new system for membership 'by invitation only'. I'm particularly keen to see people interested in art, design and fashion join up along with young film-makers and - as ever - political activists / indymedia types. But my personal preferences aren't going to stop you joining. That stuff's up to the rest of em.
[ 18.04.2005, 08:28: Message edited by: London ]
Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
FUCK OFF AND DIE NEWBIE SCUM
Signed,
TMO Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
I think it's a reasonable idea but where do we advertise ?
It'd be nice to have a few more people bouncing about..
If anyone does have any ideas that won't mean we get trolled back to the Dark Ages then I'm all for it.
Posted by London (Member # 29) on :
We'd advertise on Kovacs' LiveJournal, of course.
"I run an online community called TMO. Or, to put that another way, I maintain the quality and the community - for the most part - runs itself."
etc...
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darryn.R: If anyone does have any ideas that won't mean we get trolled back to the Dark Ages then I'm all for it.
I think a good way of attracting new people is to have some kind of interesting, regularly updated content on the main website. If you have any ideas for the sort of content you'd like to appear on your site, let me know and I'll tell you whether or not it would be acceptable.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Perhaps we could put you in stocks and hurl bitten off fingers at your genitals? Then have it streamed via webcam onto the frontpage. It would really generate enthusiasm if we did an extreme closeup by hurling your Smart from a trebuchet onto a pile of playstations running GT4.
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
quote:Originally posted by New Way Of Decay: Perhaps we could put you in stocks and hurl bitten off fingers at your genitals? Then have it streamed via webcam onto the frontpage. It would really generate enthusiasm if we did an extreme closeup by hurling your Smart from a trebuchet onto a pile of playstations running GT4.
URNathanBarleyAICM5GBP
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ringo: regularly updated content
Duder, if anyone has any ideas I'm all for it - I really mean't to do something with the site but what with a crappy job I hated and the baby I just lost all impetus.
Still, house husband now, maybe I'll find time to get inspired
Posted by jonesy999 (Member # 5) on :
I'm inexplicably shackled to an online community called TMO. Or, to put that another way, I sacrifice worthwhile human interaction for anonymous textual dealings with the eclectic electric entities who live inside my computer. This faceless fellowship doesn't have an over-arching mission or subject that everyone talks about – although there are sections on sex, Jews, self-loathing, sex, Japanese cinema, wolves, sex (and many more). But the attitude and approach are the most important things about the board – it endeavours (and in places succeeds) in being a place where you can dump firm stools of textcrement at your leisure, just to see if others like the smell. You will be interrogated, assimilated then assaulted and insulted on a daily basis, if, that is, the community can be bothered with your contributions. Some of you will be ignored altogether.
Members of the board tend towards the left or towards librarianism (but we counterbalance this using over inflated opinions from our resident right wing chatbot) and are a real mix of creative individuals – from university lecturers, psychos, journos, homos and lomo mofos...I think it gets its value from having such a lot of different perspectives and the very real opportunity to watch someone psychologically unravel and, hopefully, crack in real time. I like the fact that the various fora within it are completely interchangeable and threads invariably end in a discussion about sex, an argument or a completely unrelated topic. That's not to say it's perfect, by any means. Not every conversation ends in a fight and not every thread degenerates into transparent flirting. But when it's good, it's really, really good. I bit like me; anyone fancy a fuck?
One area of the board that I think could really do with more rigor and more enthusiasm is around the area of young flesh. The culture is a little too heavily weighted towards jaded long-time posters who fail to find titillation in decaying familiarity, and I think it could do with some fresh perspectives or, perhaps, breasts. Equally, hot young cock would certainly find a welcome home here.
So I'm putting out a call for flirts, skirts, h8ers, skaters, debaters, freaks, geeks, homos, jomos, gaymos, journos, so-sos with big la-las, Lulus with nice neat toes, sluts, goths, boyz, toffs, twenties, thirties, prudes and dirties, heroes, zeros, Helen Shapiro, lookaways, lookalikes, bashful babes, pushy punks, sexy suicidals, happy homicidals, cheesy breezy matinee idols, sandal wearing random Romans, cliché wielding online robots, electro boys and hip hop girls, gaybie laden milfette mums with shiny Spanish curls; stoat lovers, goat lovers, nothing under coat lovers, drinkers, thinkers, tinkers, sailors, jailers, bloggers, buggers, bastards, lovers, hotties, totty. Just about? Just about old enough? Just about everyone.
The board's membership isn't limited and you don't need an invitation. Gate crash and piss on the speakers then expose your soul and pass out in the bath. Don't worry, someone will take advantage of you. We don't care what you do, who you are or what you are. Frankly, we just need the numbers.
If you haven't been mentioned above, don't despair. We'll take any old *****.
[ 19.04.2005, 12:14: Message edited by: jonesy999 ]
Posted by London (Member # 29) on :
whooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Jonesy! By gosh, I think he's done it. Yay! I think we should run with this - if Mr Coates will permit the allusions to his primary text, of course. We must forage through every (half-decent) message board in the land and wiggle this intriguing textual droplet before them! We must infiltrate blogs and the media at large. Fish can broadcast it on BBC news: blipvert it during his war film. We can submit this instead of boring articles on yet another indie band: photocopy it a million times and press it into the hot breast pockets of the nation's anti-intellectual congnesceti; paste it on advertising hoardings; throw it from the 42nd floor of the Natwest tower; tattoo it on our insteps; seize the mic at book readings and read it out aloud, imploring the audience to JOIN USSSSSSSSS. JOIN USSSSSSSSSSS. JOIN US!
in other words: applause.
edit: maybe one of the board's skilled designers could turn this into an A4 poster? We can all print it out then dash out after midnight with a stack of posters and some wallpaper paste. If every TMO-er flyposts 10 posters in their local area, it will probably..
...have no effect whatsoever, but oh, what fun!
[ 18.04.2005, 12:36: Message edited by: London ]
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
I was thinking I would print it out as text and paste it to everything and anything I come across,
Posted by London (Member # 29) on :
...don't forget to include the URL...
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
I'm pretty thick chick, but I'm not that thick.
Posted by London (Member # 29) on :
Yeah, but can you say that seven times without tying your tongue in a knot?
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
I can't take a piss without catching the end in my zip. Posted by Helen Shapiro (Member # 794) on :
Hi, it's me, Helen Shapiro. Glad to hear the girl is still in demand, even if it is by a community I don't understand. I might hang around for a while if no one has any objections. My output has been pretty prolific in recent years, what with penning a string of northern soul hits with the Martin Ox Orchestra. I'm pretty proud of 'swinging standards' such as Beat Down my Back Door with a Banjo Baby, Kiss my Comely Mouth, Mourinho and Old Father Time: Bicycle Thief. Despite all that I always find time for my fans so, you called, I answered. Hey, with a lazy bass that would make a fantastic little ditty for the new album. It's going to be called Rate my Dobedo, by the way (the album. The ditty needs a little work). It should be in the shops some time around the fall. Ah, who am I kidding, "Fall"? You all know I'm an East End girl, right? Though I don't make it home as often as I did. Too many curry houses for me. Hey, everyone should have somewhere but they should close their kitchen windows when they get there, right? Also I seem to have passed the whole Hoxton thing by. Their loss. I was out that way the other day, though, buying some yellow lilies on the old Columbia Road, and I was quite taken with their latest accessory. It seems the puppy is the new Hoxton handbag. Everyone was carrying one. One guy was carrying one looked like a miniature cow. Dobedo he was a cutey. The cowdog not the guy. The guy looked like a monster from the other side of the stargate – and if you don't remember that one, the chorus went.
Put my hand through the gate before it was too late But he bit it. Bit it! Put your hand through the gate before it is too late. Don't admit it. Never admit it. Stargate, it's never too late. The monsters are under the bed. Stargate, it's never too late. The monsters are just in your head.
Still available on Columbia guys.
Anyway, overheard mister monster saying, “Well of course, he sleeps in a bag.”
I don't know about that but I want to get me one of those cowdogs. Dobedo I do.
So, hello TMO. May I be the first to answer your call.
Big up the swinger massive.
Posted by jonesy999 (Member # 5) on :
Excellent!
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
Top Notch Jones - Spread the word. Posted by Gail (Member # 21) on :
I didn't know Helen Shapiro lived in Bristol. Do you share a flat with Tony Robinson, Helen?
Posted by Helen Shapiro (Member # 794) on :
Not to my knowledge, Gail. It should be said, though, I've had a few bottles of blanc with Humphrey Lyttelton's kid and barely know the name of my first album. So, maybe.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
I've just done Urban Freeflow Posted by sabian (Member # 6) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: I've just done Urban Freeflow
quote: gearsighted1 UF Moderator wow...spam....
wow...observant...
Posted by London (Member # 29) on :
Yay! They called you a spammer, though, the savage bastards. I've just done my own site! I don't think I'm a spammer.
Posted by sabian (Member # 6) on :
I could post it on my boards that I frequent, but I'm not entirely sure you'd want 'that sort' hanging around here! Posted by London (Member # 29) on :
B-but if we like you, we'll surely like your mates?
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
Jonesy - that was class, and if that doesn't get us inundated with quality newbs then I'll buy a hat and dine upon it. I would put it up on my wee homepage, but a) nobody except me ever visits it, and b)I appear to have lost the password anyway.
Darryn - I think that should grace a portion of the front page, with some lovely phoo.
Posted by Helen Shapiro (Member # 794) on :
Fact for the fans: Hugh Cornwall wanted yours truly as a lyric in No More Heroes but "Shakespearoes" was voted in at three to one thanks to the limited vision of the rest of the band.
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
quote:Originally posted by Helen Shapiro: Fact for the fans: Hugh Cornwall wanted yours truly as a lyric in No More Heroes but "Shakespearoes" was voted in at three to one thanks to the limited vision of the rest of the band.
Another Fact for the fans - I have had the pleasure of meeting Hugh's and Hazel O' Connors love child who has quite a cocaine habit and is quite the cordial host, offering just about everyone she knew a 'rim job', whatever that is.
Posted by Helen Shapiro (Member # 794) on :
And she's quite a tongue, believe you me. Never cleaner.
Are you in the business then, Wayne Star?
The business of show, I mean, not rimming.
[ 19.04.2005, 04:50: Message edited by: Helen Shapiro ]
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote: April 15, 2005
I run an online community called Barbelith. Or to put that another way, I maintain the software and the community - for the most part - runs itself. This community doesn't have an over-arching mission or subject that everyone talks about - although there are sections on philosophy, science, mysticism, politics, literature (and many more). But the attitude and approach is the most important thing about the board - it endeavours (and in places succeeds) in being a place where you can have some of the highest quality discussions online with people who are prepared to engage and interrogate without being insulting. Members of the board tend towards the left or towards libertarianism, tend towards atheism or mysticism and are a real mix of creative individuals - from university lecturers, psychologists, artists, screen-writers, novelists... I think it gets its value from having such a lot of different perspectives able to work and engage with each other - and I like the fact that the various forums within it have incredibly distinct atmospheres while still allowing people to cross-polonate and move between its various areas. That's not to say it's perfect, by any means. Not every conversation goes brilliantly and not every thread is as engaging and thorough. But when it's good, it's really really good.
One area of the board that I really think could do with more rigor and more enthusiasm is around the area of science and technology. The culture is a little too heavily weighted towards philosophers, social scientists and humanities graduates at the moment, and I think it could really benefit from having other perspectives and knowledge of the kinds of innovations and developments that you can read about in publications like New Scientist or on Slashdot or Boing Boing, Pasta and Vinegar or We Make Money Not Art.
So I'm putting out a call for renaissance geeks, scientists, webloggers and technologists with a wide range of interests to come and join our little community. I'm looking for a group of twenty or thirty people who could really take hold of the Laboratory forum and push it in exciting areas - and who think they could use the extraordinary enthusiasm and multiplicity of perspectives from the rest of the board as personal inspiration.
The board's membership at the moment is highly limited and pretty much invitation-only, so if you're interested in joining then let me know by e-mail - my address as ever is tom@ and then plasticbag.org. If you could put in a few lines about the work you do and about your interest in science and technology that will make everything easier (and I'm afraid I really need people to have work or university or personal domain-name-based e-mail addresses - no gmail or hotmail ones will work). And as soon as I've got a decent number of people, I'll send out an invitiation to all of you at once.
If you are not a technologist or scientist and still want to join then don't despair. There is another approach to getting on the board at the moment as outlined in this thread: The practical facts about our new system for membership 'by invitation only'. I'm particularly keen to see people interested in art, design and fashion join up along with young film-makers and - as ever - political activists / indymedia types. But my personal preferences aren't going to stop you joining. That stuff's up to the rest of em.
Fucking hell! I've only just read this through, in it's entirety. Do you think it could possibly be any more pompous?
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
quote:Originally posted by Helen Shapiro: And she's quite a tongue, believe you me. Never cleaner.
Are you in the business then, Wayne Star?
Loosely. Part-time and unpaid, but my involvement is valid I think. I help spread the love.
Posted by Helen Shapiro (Member # 794) on :
Well, pleased to make your acquaintance. And keep on spreading.
Can't get Cornie Junior out of my head now. Tongue like a silk anteater, she really has.
[ 19.04.2005, 04:46: Message edited by: Helen Shapiro ]
Posted by Jessica Rabbit (Member # 776) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: Fucking hell! I've only just read this through, in it's entirety. Do you think it could possibly be any more pompous?
So you need to audition for this thing? How much does it pay?
Posted by Vogon Poetess (Member # 164) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: Fucking hell! I've only just read this through, in it's entirety. Do you think it could possibly be any more pompous?
I was wondering why you need to give your work email to sign up. Do they do a credit history check as well?
Also, hello Helen. Although I had to google to find out who you were.
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: Fucking hell! I've only just read this through, in it's entirety. Do you think it could possibly be any more pompous?
Out of morbid curiosity I have just paid Barbelith a visit and read some of their FAQ's. With all due respects it is a public message board, just as TMO is and countless other communities, but this one seems hell-bent on an elitist state on the internet. It's snobbery gone mad, almost like they want proof of what college at Oxbridge you attended before being graced with a user id.
Apart from that, it seems to be lacking in some originality - some of the FAQ 'in speak' and jokes are just a blatant rip of from ideas first employed at Seethru and also from here - did they just take a look at Misc's TMO explained and make an Upper Class variant? Use bigger more clever words for the in-speak? Use in jokes based around fagging at Eton?
In fact I would go as far as to say their advert is in fact the Antithesis of this, and is purely a over-embellished 'Keep out' sign.
[ 19.04.2005, 05:14: Message edited by: Waynster ]
Posted by Helen Shapiro (Member # 794) on :
Hello and no worries, Vogon Poetess. My PR is a moron. It's high time I sent him packing. Shame about Dougie Adamas, wasn't it? He had a sweet smile.
[ 19.04.2005, 05:25: Message edited by: Helen Shapiro ]
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
Barbelith's advert reads, to me, a lot like something one of the people Mike and Luce were interviewing back in (?)2001 would offer as the pitch for Seethru. In fact, if you watch episode one, there's a very similar speech from a guy even Luce describes as a wanker.
I only really visit two boards on Barbelith, and I post quite a lot there because they discuss things that are interesting to me, but that I don't see discussed (certainly not in that depth) anywhere else. Seven pages on a new Grant Morrison comic is my kind of thread.
However, I don't see the Comics and Film/TV forums there are being especially high-powered intellectual, or even a source of quality writing. I have had a couple of decent arguments (though the place is so policed I was harangued for taking a thread supposedly off-topic for three posts) but there is a great deal of
quote:woooh just got this from my friendly neighbourhood dealer and I just creamed myself at this Grant goodness! well done George [long, long-running joke to substitute real name with anything else beginning with G] and Cam [the artist, who also posts on the forum and whom you can't, therefore, ever really criticise] your work is really coming along in leaps and bounds! I wept on the train! 'Home Me Soon!' Cry! next: more Kirby-fun-delia! Could this month be any more joycore?
Some of the discussion on other forums (eg. about cyber-gender-identity, etc) is no doubt more high-brow, because I couldn't scroll thru it without brainache.
[ 19.04.2005, 05:54: Message edited by: kovacs ]
Posted by jonesy999 (Member # 5) on :
quote:Originally posted by kovacs: ...more high-brow, because I couldn't scroll thru it without brainache.
Shouldn't that be even I couldn't scroll through it...
[ 19.04.2005, 05:30: Message edited by: jonesy999 ]
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
As below, so above
[ 19.04.2005, 08:58: Message edited by: Waynster ]
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
A rare deletion from "The K-Star". Thanks for pointing out my potential offence, Wayne-Star.
[ 19.04.2005, 05:54: Message edited by: kovacs ]
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
If you guys can't get back on-topic I'm moving this thread to Rants.
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
Oh I see what you were implying now. I guess the initial shock of reading that bit made me not pay as much attention to the meaning in your sub note.
Still it is not the sort of thing I would have posted - I still find it a little tactless. But that's my call and yours is yours, so no problem.
[ 19.04.2005, 05:46: Message edited by: Waynster ]
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: If you guys can't get back on-topic I'm moving this thread to Rants.
Sorry chap. Do you reckon with their 'Hiring' of some scientists they are actually offering a salary? I might write in and find out.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
You can't put a price on the prestige of being a Barbelith forite. (That's how kovacs keeps extending his Best-By date. We need to keep his hem in the vicinity.)
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
Oooooo, new poeple have come..
I wonder who they are ?
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: You can't put a price on the prestige of being a Barbelith forite. (That's how kovacs keeps extending his Best-By date. We need to keep his hem in the vicinity.)
Seriously, I think Barbelith is a bit overrated.
Posted by The H Pony (Member # 784) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darryn.R: Oooooo, new poeple have come..
I wonder who they are ?
Trolls.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
My favourite google search ever was the one that produced a thread on Barbelith where Mask told them that their board was pompous and precious.
Posted by Louche (Member # 450) on :
Thanks for making me google that, NWOD. It's made my afternoon. But then, my afternoon has been utterly shit on a fucking shitty stick, so it's not like it was any real competition.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
If it makes you feel better I lied through my teeth about wanting 'commitment, challenging work and longer hours' when in fact I really wanted to say 'as soon as this interview is over I will be brainstorming how to quit this shitty line of work'
I crossed my arms all the way through the interview but still got the job. I hate myself a little bit because of it.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darryn.R: Oooooo, new poeple have come..
I wonder who they are ?
Woohoo!
Okay, everyone, best behaviour. And let's be seeing some top threads...
Posted by His Life And Crimes (Member # 796) on :
Ah, Barbelith's okay - a few too many Star Wars fans there these days though.
So.. what's good here?
Posted by sabian (Member # 6) on :
The house white... Though the chardonnay is better.
Posted by London (Member # 29) on :
Nothing. We are all sucking superhard at the moment, in a determined attempt to prove our lack of worth.
Posted by sabian (Member # 6) on :
dood, if someone was sucking superhard, that'd just prove how worthy they were!
my coat I will get.
Posted by schism (Member # 198) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darryn.R: I think it's a reasonable idea but where do we advertise ?
It'd be nice to have a few more people bouncing about..
If anyone does have any ideas that won't mean we get trolled back to the Dark Ages then I'm all for it.
Hey, I'll bounce around for a while again... not that I ever made much difference anyway! Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
===FIELD REPORT FROM A BOARD FAR CLEVERER THAN THIS ONE===
In the last few weeks on intellectual forum Barbelith I have been lambasted for pretentious namedropping because I mentioned Un Chien Andalou once and, on Thursday, the fact that I was reading Philip Roth's new novel.
The "threadrot" rulebook has been held over me when I diverged from the topic of discussion for a couple of posts, broadening the scope of the conversation modestly beyond contributions like
quote:add this to the Wiki: Graenstone first appeared in My Serious Adventure #11... can't find Nestrina in any of my back issues yet, but could be George's version of the Marvel heroine Jeanina the FoxSmith (ran 6 ish, 1979-1980)... great job Graham!
and
quote:PRAXI-STONE ON! So much chock full'o'Grant here I can't begin to write it down.... the look on Jaxin's face when the Usomoth appears... the Bolland-esque lines around the figures in the cosmic splash pages... got to get back to my 2nd reading... this is the best Thursday since... well, since George's last comic came out!
After dutifully obeying the Barbelith play-nice etiquette for months ("Don't post angry. We'd like to think Barbelith is a better place to be. Any homophobic remarks will be taken as a personal insult to any trans-gender, non-het or queer-identifying person on the board, whether ZE knows ZE is gay-positioned on the continuum of sexuality, or not") I realised that while I was trying to remember my manners, other contributors were getting away with "fuck off kovacs you ponce". That sort of thing might be acceptable down here in the net-gutter when Doc D says it, but surely Barbelith was the high table of online discussion.
As BM realised some time ago, Barbelith is superbia-utopia only because of its tight moderation policy. A simple way to understand it is to think of the mods as the Minds in Iain M Banks; superior intellects like the head of the Great and Powerful Oz, overlooking the board traffic and stepping down hard on any contributor who insults the queer-identified subjectivity of another.
So I asked the mods whether there was indeed a code of etiquette and if I should bother to be polite. The response: the laughter of the gods. There is no code of etiquette, kovacs! Stop being a cry-baby.
B-but what the fuck, there is something called a Guide to Barbelith Posting Etiquette. Maybe it was just my luck to get a moderator who hadn't read ze rules on zir own dizzcuzzion zite. But then, this is a moderator whose telly reviews run "this week's Doctor Who was rubbish, aliens were dumb, next week look's better".
There is a 6 month waiting list to get into Barbelith, with the kind of application form and personal references you need to get a fucking paying job. Barbelith is a club you queue outside for three hours, only to realise it's a half-empty 6th form common room from 1988.
[ 24.04.2005, 05:57: Message edited by: kovacs ]
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
And we're a Witherspoons - Cheapish talk and food available.
Posted by fridgemagnet (Member # 134) on :
Why would you queue outside a club for three hours?
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
quote:Our rule of thumb is that other members shouldn't feel harrassed, and aggressive statements about types of people who might be represented on the board may be considered direct harrassment of the individuals concerned. We genuinely do not care if you think this is 'political correctness gone mad' - if you feel that someone has misinterpreted something you've said to be homophobic or racist or whatever, the best thing you can do is apologise quickly for your poor choice of words, apologise to anyone you might have offended and try and restate the question again in clearer language.
George Orwell will be spinning in his grave. His stiff jawbone flapping. Yelling: 'I was right, I was right'
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
quote:Originally posted by fridgemagnet: Why would you queue outside a club for three hours?
Perhaps one of the cast of 'Footballer Wives' is inside doing something common with a man ?
Posted by jnhoj (Member # 286) on :
a 6 month waiting list? I wonder if I've still got my account, maybe I can sell it on ebay.
Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darryn.R: And we're a Witherspoons
No music? Or smoking? And have you tried our exceptional "Witherburger" ?
Posted by His Life And Crimes (Member # 796) on :
I must confess that whenever I find myself doubting Barbelith's worth, all I have to do is look at the way kovacs is treated there at the moment and suddenly it all seems worthwhile again.
Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
Alright, Kovacs?
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
Oh I'm fine now.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
I thank god I'm too low-brow for Barbelithium.
Posted by H1ppychick (Member # 529) on :
I only look at the Tv forum these days and I don't even contribute to that.
Much like my performance here, in fact.
not posting but lurking - I think I may adopt this as my new sig.
Posted by fridgemagnet (Member # 134) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darryn.R: Perhaps one of the cast of 'Footballer Wives' is inside doing something common with a man ?
Well, if that's what people expect from Barbelith, no wonder they're a bit disappointed. Might be able to do you Little Mo in a low-cut top.
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
Big Mo in a big bra perchance ?
Posted by fridgemagnet (Member # 134) on :
That's VIP section only mate.
tell you what, fifty notes, I'll sneak you in round the back
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
If only we had the cash to spare Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Has fridgemagnet showed up to represent Barbelith on this board? That is interesting.
Posted by fridgemagnet (Member # 134) on :
Bring forth the champion of your people, and we will BATTLE for the FUTURE of this PUNY PLANET.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
We've covered all the omnipotence and a power struggle jokes this week sadly. Posted by fridgemagnet (Member # 134) on :
Arse. That's what I get for not paying attention.
Do you still have St**lgate here incidentally? The subject has just come up on Urban.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
I'm not qualified to answer that. I think he's on an all expenses paid business venture at the moment. He might not come back if you can suffer such a shock to the system.
He realised the futility of posting on a bulletin board day in, day out. Which I think is something approaching wisdom when you say it like that.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Obviously I don't feel the need for a qualification to give something a go. SOML.
Posted by doc d (Member # 781) on :
quote:Originally posted by kovacs: "fuck off kovacs you ponce". That sort of thing might be acceptable down here in the net-gutter when Doc D says it,
oi. you fucking ponce. eta: i'm sorry i have nothing further to add. but really i'm far more capable of conversations about interesting things in real life.
its hand gestures and vocal inflections, i can't type them.
[ 24.04.2005, 14:30: Message edited by: doc d ]
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Does Darryn need some dosh?
Posted by fridgemagnet (Member # 134) on :
Well, I think what topic I had is played out now. Where's the action at?
You can ask me questions about Barbelith if you like but to be honest, apart from the bitterness, you'll likely get similar responses from kovacs.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
In Kovacs defense (who'd have thought this day would come) he received what appeared to me, to be a playground bullying. Everyone working en masse to see who could get away with calling him a twat or telling him to piss off. I'd be angry frankly, especially if it came from a group of elitists who consider themselves the last bastion of goodwill.
[ 24.04.2005, 16:03: Message edited by: New Way Of Decay ]
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
I didn't really feel I'd got that much of a drubbing. Am I reading the right threads? I have not given Barbelith the glory of my presence today.
Anyway it is -- as was the case when Thorn got slagged off on Handbag -- great the way you feel a tight TMO bonding even with people you didn't really reckon you liked, when someone from "outside" slags them. It's genuinely a good feeling when you realise you have a TMO identity that unites you with other people against an online Other. I was even rooting for that little shit Black Mask when I read his Barbelith thread!
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
I was thinking of the Klarion thread. You weren't exactly being worked through the ropes, but it had that 'well I've just read all of the points above and I agree' and I was thinking that 'shut it kovacs, your cock smells of chee....etc' aren't really points. So maybe I'd agreed, if anyone had really bothered to put up an arguement. I was rooting for you. Maybe I can only really talk TMO. Going into the outer rings of the internet for me would be like a child wandering the streets late at night. Scared. Frightened.
I'd like to say that I hate any form of discrimination and I think they are slating you for just being Kovacs in this instance. The truth is, yeah you do have a protective instinct over fellow fourumites here because if somebody is going to give them a handful of shit, you'd rather me the one doing it yourself. Like fighting with your siblings. You beat up the younger brother, but don't like watching someone else do it.
Combined with thinking they didn't make an effort to banter with you fairly, the jealousy of it not being me giving you stick and the desire to stand by my TMan, I'd rather give Barbelith a miss altogether.
[ 24.04.2005, 16:34: Message edited by: New Way Of Decay ]
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Also, I can't promise my spelling will get any better than this. It's gone downhill since I bought a keyboard based solely on the fact it glowed blue. Like my sadface. Posted by fridgemagnet (Member # 134) on :
I find it hard to perform duties as the Representative of Barbelith here since I don't give much of a toss about comics and haven't seen any of Kovacs' previous contributions in that forum. Even though I'm a moderator there. No, I don't understand either. I just got assigned it. Mostly it's just deleting double posts snd stuff.
I'm not disturbing a group hug moment am I? It looks a bit like Kovacs getting a slagging out of proportion to post content, but then I don't know the history.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
It's not really group hug. More realisation that you have some sort of moral bond to people you fight tooth and claw with most of the time.
In my instance, I find a place like Barbelith intimidating. Perhaps it's because the posters there feel the need to flex their typing muscles to extremes. I have the distinct impression that people ganged up on Kovacs, not because he said anything wrong, but because the oppurtunity arised. I can't stand that. It's more than likely that one on one, they'd have been ripped to shreds.
I can't stand that though. When I was young, I was picked on mercilessley for looking different. It seems when you get older you have the delights of people continuing to do this because you think and type differently, no matter how polite you come across.
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by fridgemagnet: It looks a bit like Kovacs getting a slagging out of proportion to post content, but then I don't know the history.
I gave you the history in my post above, and it's surely clear I am making a point beyond a single thread. I have stuck it out on Barbelith for some time and been thanked for some of my contributions. I feel I've given quite a lot of energy to the site, and often found it rewarding in return. Now I'm finding the scales tipping the wrong way, and that's because of Barbelith's essential nature as a community.
The intensely irritating limitations to discussion imposed by the moderation culture, and the generally limited discussion that's perhaps a self-censoring consequence of this obsession with keeping "on-topic" at the risk of only posting banality, are outweighing the fact that this is a board built around one of my favourite writers.
In general, I don't think the board content measures up to the community's smug self-image as an intellectual elite. I've given my impressions of the average Comic Books contribution. Film, TV and Theatre is the same -- uninspired reports on the latest episode, predictions for the next. I wasn't just cruelly caricaturing that Doctor Who post: the online think-tank frequently makes do with contributions that thoughtless and pointless. I have visited the Music and the Books forum and found them sluggish. The Conversation is the kind of inane, in-crowd chat you can find on any discussion board.
I won't deny there are intelligent people on Barbelith, though some of them aren't making enough effort. I don't think it is remotely living up to its pompous advertising at the moment, and I've certainly heard that it is keeping prospective new members waiting a long time without correspondence. I have had to provide character references for people who wanted to join. There really is that much gate-keeping and border security, as if to preserve the intellectual purity within. Maybe I missed its golden age, but I believe Barbelith is pretty stagnant right now. I also think its general attitude to debate and free speech is prissy, and its moderation seems shoddily inconsistent.
So no, I am not just trying to boost up a little scandal on TMO by running to tell tales about a single thread. I don't have that kind of responsibility to TMO. I thought my report might be interesting and also I knew I wouldn't get anywhere posting my feelings on Barbelith -- for a start, it'd be threadrot, and secondly it would just be antagonistic. It makes sense to come "home" if you want to offload and have a gripe. Nobody on Barbelith should really care what I post here, and I don't flatter myself that my opinions have any hope of changing their community.
Posted by doc d (Member # 781) on :
quote:Originally posted by kovacs: It makes sense to come "home" if you want to offload and have a gripe. [/QB]
how was your day at work dear? hard day defending alice and batman? would you like a cup of tea? i made you some dinner, its egg and chips, with your favourite, cheesy beans.
Posted by doc d (Member # 781) on :
thats meant to be "funny".
but i bet it doesn't read that way.
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
It's "accurate" Posted by doc d (Member # 781) on :
can i reach 400? proba
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
See that's why I suck at the written word. The impressions I am given by the site are everything that's written by 'vacs above. Except I would dumb it down into a shortened sound byte.
Barbelith is policed hypocrisy.
See, at least I can enjoy the conversation and either be ignored here, or generate a throaty lol in the afternoon.
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
Yeah... TMO is shit, but it's our shit.
Posted by Vogon Poetess (Member # 164) on :
I read all the Harry Potter threads on the Hooked Stone of which you speak, as it was the most intelligent and observant discussion of the books I'd ever seen (only me, Dang and Stevie are properly into it here). Some of the chatty threads are ok.
I don't think the intellectual muscle is as mighty as it first appears, it's just that the grammar, spelling, punctuation is mostly good and posts are generally coherent and well structured. That's a pretty depressing state of affairs though, if adherence to basic literacy standards mean a discussion automatically looks superior to others.
Anyone got a linky to the Mask thread?
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
quote:Originally posted by kovacs: Yeah... TMO is shit, but it's our shit.
Damn motherfcukin' straight
Is that a good thing ?
Posted by Benny the Ball (Member # 694) on :
Shut up Kovacs, G M Motors is the best etc....
I thought that they were quite rude, personally. Of late there has been a couple of threads that have gotten personal and pointlessly hair splitting, but I thought that to dismiss Kovacs without even thinking about what he'd written was a bit off.
I'd expect that here, but that's why I come here.
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
If you Google Black Mask and Barbelith, VP, it comes up immediately.
Imagine what the humans of a mere five years ago would have made of that sentence. We are talking the language of the future! Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
Well, Black Mask also said in the same thred:
Why would calling a negro a negro be considered racist?
I'm not sure anyone emerges with hella credit, there.
Bulletin boards are often very big things, and it's hard to pin them down accurately in a single paragraph or on limited reading. From my experience of TMO, for example, it seems that it's far more permissible _here_, rather than the over-moderated Barbelith, to be profoundly thin-skinned - Black Mask trying to rot his own thread with personal abuse, kovacs apparently feeling entitled to ignore measured responses like Flyboy and Dizfactor's to his position on Morrison vs Roth because yawn told him to shut it. I would very rarely see yawn's online persona as anything other than profoundly irritating, but it's hardly a complete picture of Barbelith. Indeed, a wider reading of Barbelith (beyond Comics and Films) might give a better picture of what is considered unacceptable - have a look at the slapfest at http://www.barbelith.com/topic/20856, say.
The idea that Grant Morrison is slavishly adored is in some cases certainly true, but it's hardly universal - K. may remember contributing to the thread at http://www.barbelith.com/topic/18961 , where Morrison was roundly criticised for being an idiot, and those who sought to mount an uncritical defence (Finderwiggum, take a bow) criticised as well. I haven't read much of TMO since the Seethru days, so I was thinking of hanging around a bit and seeing a bit more about it. However, it sounds as if that wouldn't be very welcome, not least because I don't think I could be polite enough to guarantee not causing severe offence, which might be seen as trolling.
Vogon Poetess: Just for reference, the "work/non-web email" thing is because Barbelith has had problems with people registering huge numbers of usernames with fake email addresses and using them to try to break the board. That's also why it's been closed for so long to new members - not elitism so much as technical issues; because it uses its own code rather than UBBScript there are not many resources for making technical changes.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: Well, Black Mask also said in the same thred:
Why would calling a negro a negro be considered racist?
I'm not sure anyone emerges with hella credit, there.
What's your problem, Purves? How is that racist? I can see how you could contextualise it into a racist epithet... "Hey, negro! Back to work!" But, as a flat racial category, how can it be considered racist? Earn yourself some credit.
Posted by Electric Boogaloo (Member # 799) on :
quote:Vogon Poetess: Just for reference, the "work/non-web email" thing is because Barbelith has had problems with people registering huge numbers of usernames with fake email addresses and using them to try to break the board. That's also why it's been closed for so long to new members - not elitism so much as technical issues; because it uses its own code rather than UBBScript there are not many resources for making technical changes.
Ah! But why won't Barbelith just use UBBScript? I think the response to this was that it would break the moderator culture. Which in itself is highly elitist.
Posted by Carter (Member # 426) on :
The very act of noticing and/or describing someone's race curses you to the seventh level of hell, BM. Did you miss a memo?
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Shut it honkey.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Barbelith is the forum equivalent of Islamic fundamentalism.
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
Boogaloo: I think dealing with you on one board is probably enough, and I doubt that these good people want to be subjected to a lengthy discussion of the history of the technical implementation of a scripting systrem for a bulletin board they don't belong to between two people who didn't do it. Ask about that on Barbelith. You're likely to get a more comprehensive answer. Who knows, you might get UBBScript back.
Black Mask: "Negro" is no longer in scientific use as a descriptor of a racial group. As such, yeah, calling a member of the racial group sometimes broadly categorised as "black" or "negroid" a "negro" is using a term with an unavoidable history of racist usage and overtone. That is, "negro" does not have a flavourless usage. That's pretty basic, but ultimately it's going to sound to you like political correctness gone mad, so if I were you I'd ask one of the many best friends who are black that you are about to mention how they feel about it. It's not my place, certainly, as a new arrival here to say much more about that, nor do I think it would be very useful to do so.
Posted by Roy (Member # 705) on :
Negroid sounds like a kind of black robo-cop.
Posted by Vogon Poetess (Member # 164) on :
Played by Wesley Snipes? That would be sweet.
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: That's pretty basic, but ultimately it's going to sound to you like political correctness gone mad
Or "political correctness gone madoid" as we prefer to say in these enlightened times.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
probably bad taste
[ 25.04.2005, 10:39: Message edited by: New Way Of Decay ]
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: if I were you I'd ask one of the many best friends who are black that you are about to mention how they feel about it.
Good grief! You're even more of a wanker here than you are over on Barbelith. Way to emerge with hella achievement.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by Roy: Negroid sounds like a kind of black robo-cop.
It's better than 'negro', though. 'Negro' has flavour. 'Negroid' is flavourless. Better still, utterly bland, is 'Afroid'. 'Blackoid' might be okay... Hold on, I'll ask one of my numerous afroid best friends.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by dang65: Or "political correctness gone madoid" as we prefer to say in these enlightened times.
dang? You sound just like a Barbeloid.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poetess: Played by Wesley Snipes?
Or, Wesloid, even?
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
'Negro' has flavour. Well, yeah. The flavour of slavery, the Deep South, regular lynchings... ultimately, it's a question of whether you believe that you getting to use the word you like best is the most important thing. You claimed at first that "negro" was a simple description of a race, being apparently not up with the language of modern ethnography. I explained it wasn't. Now we're getting to it. You just like calling black people negroes, for whatever reason.
That's fine. I certainly don't have any way to stop you. In fact, I suggest you do it more. Call every black person you meet a negro, and then, if they ask you not to do it, tell them you like negro, it has flavour, and it's their problem, not yours, if they don't like it. Please. If you still live in London, I can recommend some places to practise.
As for some of your best friends being black... is this the same Black Mask who said:
You've never actually met a real black person, have you?
And felt that was an acceptable form of argument? I do believe it is. Hypocrisy is a terrible thing, moderated or not.
[ 25.04.2005, 11:03: Message edited by: The Peter Purves cargo cult ]
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: Hold on, I'll ask one of my numerous afroid best friends.
Better skip that, Roy. I asked one of my negroid best friends... Well, I say negroid, more specifically he's a member of the racial group sometimes broadly categorised as "black" or "negroid". He said I was talking shit and that I was probably scratching around for an on-the-money-sounding term to validate some argument I was having on an internet forum. He said if I asked him any shizznit like that again he'd slamdunk my chicken gizzards into a watermelon... or something. Unusually aggressive for an afroid.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Stopoid teh madoidness!
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: 'Negro' has flavour.
Well, yeah. The flavour of slavery, the Deep South, regular lynchings...
So, in whose interest is it to replace the word 'Negro'? Who is it that would want to cover up that association with slavery and the racial injustice of the past then?
Maybe we could propose a new term to replace 'Jew', what with that word having the flavour of slavery, the concentration camps, regular pogroms...
Posted by squeegy (Member # 136) on :
quote:Originally posted by dang65: Maybe we could propose a new term to replace 'Jew', what with that word having the flavour of slavery, the concentration camps, regular pogroms...
They like to be reminded
This paul guy reminds me of Kovacs back when he gave a shit about arguing on teemo.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: Well, yeah. The flavour of slavery, the Deep South, regular lynchings...
God, I wish I could learn to care like that...
Before you make me cry with the depth and breadth of your emotion, though, when did I ever say I liked to call black people, any people, 'negro'? When, o **** ? I pointed out that I didn't consider the term 'negro' to be racist, that's all. It's not a beautiful word. It's clunky, institutional, clinical, it may even have some unfortunate historical flavour. But, I don't think it's racist. I already pointed out that it could be contextualised racistly, I'm aware of that. I really am aware of that and I really did point that out. You can check, it was only a couple of posts back. That doesn't mean I get my jollies walking around Harlesden barking 'Negro!' at every black face I see. That would make me an idiot. Like you.
Know what I think? I think you're in a corner and you can't fucking bear the fact that you can't edit my posts, delete the thread, move it to another forum or block my ISP. You useless turd.
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
Well, probably the first response to that is that the word with associations of etc is Jude Germany not being an english-speaking nation. Second up, English-speaking Jewish people self-identify as Jews and as Jewish, and don't object to being called Jews and Jewish, whereas English-speaking black people in general don't love being called negroes. There's also an apples-oranges thing going on, as being Jewish is not the same thing as being black, but that's not wildly important right now.
As I said above, I'm certainly in no position to stop you from calling black people negroes. I have told you that modern ethnography does not describe people as "negroes", and therefore that the "it's just the correct scientific term" argument is incorrect. I assume, therefore, that your reason for calling black people negroes is because you just really like calling black people negroes. That's not really my business. As I said to Black Mask, I suggest you do it to your heart's content. I'm just curious as to _why_ you want to call black people negroes, since the "scientific language" argument is a bust. Best we have so far is "it has flavour". For me, that argument is not sufficiently convincing, but different people have different needs.
[ 25.04.2005, 12:24: Message edited by: The Peter Purves cargo cult ]
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
You've lost. Admit it.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
quote:Originally posted by dang65: Maybe we could propose a new term to replace 'Jew', what with that word having the flavour of slavery, the concentration camps, regular pogroms...
On the al-Jazeera message board wily posters circumvent the rules against posting on race and relgion by talking about 'geuws'.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
loser
[ 25.04.2005, 12:12: Message edited by: Black Mask ]
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
loser
[ 25.04.2005, 12:13: Message edited by: Black Mask ]
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
loser
[ 25.04.2005, 12:13: Message edited by: Black Mask ]
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
Wow. Must be great to win all the time, Black Mask. Your head must be so thickly-carpeted with victory flags as to make thinking completely impossible.
The question you asked, and I am sorry to bring facts into this, was:
Why would calling a negro a negro be considered racist?
You believed that "negro" was an accepted taxonomic term. It is not. You have not come up with another reason to call black people negroes, except that you, personally, like the word. You think it has flavour. That's great, and I have a bunch of suggestion as to where you might want to savour that flavour.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: Why would calling a negro a negro be considered racist?
Maybe you could consult out board specialist. We have that here.
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
Of course Peter Purves is welcome to post here, and there's no reason it would seem like trolling. I'm sure most folk on TMO can handle someone causing offence.
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: kovacs apparently feeling entitled to ignore measured responses like Flyboy and Dizfactor's to his position on Morrison vs Roth because yawn told him to shut it.
Come off it. Choosing not to get into an involved debate isn't the same as being abusive or rude. Of course anyone is entitled not to reply to posts, if they choose to. Often a lack of response is to do with time and other pressing business. It's not necessarily a snub. In the case we're talking about, I didn't want to get into a point-by-point rebuttal, because many of the posts were attacks on my perceived persona, not about Klarion the Witch-Boy or even about the merits of comics compared to other media. By opting not to reply fully, I was stepping back from a potentially lengthy and nasty argument that would have gone way off the topic of that specific comic book.
quote:Indeed, a wider reading of Barbelith (beyond Comics and Films) might give a better picture of what is considered unacceptable
I'm getting tired of this "your experience of Barbelith is narrow" gambit. Why should I have any duty to read boards that don't interest me, before I can draw a conclusion about whether Barbelith is a place I enjoy visiting? What's considered unacceptable on your community doesn't have to be indicated by a broader reading of various threads or by specific case studies, because it is laid out in the Barbelith Code of Etiquette -- a code your moderators seem to have forgotten.
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
Sorry, I'm new to this. First person to lose their shit completely and start throwing toys wins?
Got it.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Longest name wins, I bow to thee.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: Wow. Must be great to win all the time, Black Mask. Your head must be so thickly-carpeted with victory flags as to make thinking completely impossible.
The question you asked, and I am sorry to bring facts into this, was:
Why would calling a negro a negro be considered racist?
You believed that "negro" was an accepted taxonomic term. It is not. You have not come up with another reason to call black people negroes, except that you, personally, like the word. You think it has flavour. That's great, and I have a bunch of suggestion as to where you might want to savour that flavour.
You're not that obtuse. You can't be. Everybody knows you're not. So, why don't you just admit you lost? You're calling me on a comment I made to some medal-polishing ditz on your shitty board months ago, and you talked yourself up an idiot tree and now you can't get down without looking like a moron (IQ 50-70). You're pathetic. Patheticoid, even.
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
What's considered unacceptable on your community doesn't have to be indicated by a broader reading of various threads or by specific case studies, because it is laid out in the Barbelith Code of Etiquette -- a code your moderators seem to have forgotten.
Well, except not quite. We're on theory and practice here. Etiquette, most obviously, is what the person who wrote that page of the wiki would like you to do and what other people haven't amended. Our FAQ is a wiki - every contribution to it is subject to emendation. What was discussed in the Policy was whether yawn telling you to "shut it" was strictly speaking harrassment. Generall, it didn't come under the remit of harrassment, for reasons discussed in that thread. It was yawn being childish and rude, and everyone who reads that can think "yawn is being childish and rude", and subsequently upbraid him for being childish and rude or ignore his posts in future because they have seen him being childish and rude, or PM him about his rudeness. If you want to complain about him adding nothing of use rather than about him violating the standards on harrassment in the FAQ, I think you have a very good case. However, not seeing how the guidelines (which I'm afraid they basically are - we ban people almost never, and do our utmost not to edit posts unless they contain material that is libellous or incites hatred) are applied generally I think is an obstacle to understanding the board. Can you judge the Moon Online entirely by its FAQ, or do you need to use the forum itself?
I'd say generally that there are people in the Comic Books forum of Barbelith whose posts don't reach the level of quality I or you would like. I'm not wild about this, but short of being draconian, deleting posts and generally behaving as Black Mask, in the way of everyone who has screwed up once and stormed off like an angry toddler, thinks we do. As it happens, this time round "the experience of reading Philip Roth made me realise how poor comics are in comparison to literature" was seen as a post that did not actually add much of quality to the discussion. That's a judgement call. It certainly inspired some crappy responses and some intelligent responses, but to say
Not really convinced by most of the points above; sorry. I am happy to admit correction when I realise someone else is right and I'm mistaken, but I think some people are getting caught up in point-scoring snarkiness and that's an obstacle to proper discussion.
After characterising the standard Barbelith response as:
I say something beyond "sqeeeeeeeeeeeal I just joycreamed my pants about the gaycore art" and it's unbearably pretentious so I should shut it?
Which some would describe as not a million miles of swamp from "points-scoring snarkiness", or indeed an attempt to head off potential threadrot. Not to mention that nobody, I think, said that it was unbearably pretentious, just not in itself a useful comparison.
So, yes, yawn was rude to you. No, that isn't something that we feel is generally serious enough to moderate posts or threads over. If yawn's behaviour is, in your opinion, a serious problem, then start a thread in the Policy about it, but it will mean a lot of moderating if that level of idiocy is judged unacceptable, which would be a _specific reading of the FAQ not currently supported by how the board works_, for you or for anyone else.
[ 25.04.2005, 11:59: Message edited by: The Peter Purves cargo cult ]
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
Spicy..
Hey Masky - Any chance you could 'try' and keep the pictures down to a size of say less than 500 pixels or so ? It keeps making things go all wonky.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darryn.R: Spicy..
Hey Masky - Any chance you could 'try' and keep the pictures down to a size of say less than 500 pixels or so ? It keeps making things go all wonky.
G-G-G-G-GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH! I'M BEING MODERATED!
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
Black Mask: Gosh. How very right you are. You didn't say that the word negro had flavour. You didn't incorreclty assert that negro was an accepted and commonly-used taxonomic term, and the fact you did it a year ago means that it no longer counts, not that you have managed to avoid learning anything about the use of the term "negro" in the meantime. You did in fact not say You've never actually met a real black person, have you?. You have in the intervening year learned lots of adjectives, and were not limited to repeating "pompous" like a wrongcock at a spelling bee.
Silly old me.
I can't think of this in terms of winning or losing, because you aren't bright enough to understand what I'm saying, or in fact even what you're saying. So, instead, you lose your shit and throw your toys out of the pram. I am losing by spending time talking to somebody who would rather call black people negroes than accept that he was wrong in stating that negro was an accepted taxonomic term, although is in fact too cowardly actually to do that anywhere apart from the Moon Online, since he knows it might lead to a well-deserved beatdown. I am losing by thinking even for a moment that anything in that broken little head was going to make sense. By those terms, I lost big-style. You are still the smartest boy on Earth. "Racistly" is the realest word ever.
The sad part is that, even in that context, reading me saying "I lost" is making you happy in your pants. This is all you want from the Internet, isn't it? See http://www.barbelith.com/topic/17129#post333852. It's a big game of Black Mask wins to balance out the many, many other ways in which you lose, and since the criteria are spare time and pig-headeness, you reckon you're in with a shot on gold.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Hee hee hee, he even just emboldened the quotes instead of adding UBB. It's like a fish out of water.
Flap flap flap!
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Loser. You lose holocaustly. Point-missingly. In-denially. Invite some of your friends over for one of those famous Barbeloid beatdowns!
Serious question: Where would you place yourself on the autistic spectrum?
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Mr Perves, no offense like, but to explain how you have taken so much out of context and deducted your own conclusions is quite embarrasing. You have taken strands of information, embellished them and then later concluded they must be true based on the sole factor Black Mask hasn't denied them. Your posts are like the rantings of a mad man. If I had a one pence piece, I would cram it into the slot at the back of you and watch you do another lap.
To think you cut into your own personal time to do this makes me feel sorry for you. Is this what you clever types get up to?
If you're going to be this entertaining and dedicated, could you come back tommorow for more of the same please?
Posted by discodamage (Member # 66) on :
this is really silly.
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
Moderated, by me.... How queer..
I'll have to install a size dohicky so the images go through an automatic resize..
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by discodamage: this is really silly.
Fun, though. This **** is priceless.
Posted by Modge (Member # 64) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: taxonomic term
Gah, you sound like Mark Simpson from this weeks IOS who used the phrase "simulacrum of masculinity" about 5 times in one article.
[ 25.04.2005, 12:25: Message edited by: Modge ]
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
quote:Originally posted by discodamage: this is really silly.
No, this is really silly
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by Modge:
Roget suggests:
Flick through to the 'R's, will you. What do they have for 'racistly'? Anything there? If not, pencil it in. It's a freebie. On me.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
quote:Originally posted by discodamage: this is really silly.
No, this is really silly.
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
toplol NWOD
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
I'll tell you something... there's gonna be some heavy-duty moderating going down on Barbelith tonight.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Somebody's gonna pay!
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: Well, except not quite. We're on theory and practice here. Etiquette, most obviously, is what the person who wrote that page of the wiki would like you to do and what other people haven't amended. Our FAQ is a wiki - every contribution to it is subject to emendation. What was discussed in the Policy was whether yawn telling you to "shut it" was strictly speaking harrassment. Generall, it didn't come under the remit of harrassment, for reasons discussed in that thread. It was yawn being childish and rude, and everyone who reads that can think "yawn is being childish and rude", and subsequently upbraid him for being childish and rude or ignore his posts in future because they have seen him being childish and rude, or PM him about his rudeness. If you want to complain about him adding nothing of use rather than about him violating the standards on harrassment in the FAQ, I think you have a very good case. However, not seeing how the guidelines (which I'm afraid they basically are - we ban people almost never, and do our utmost not to edit posts unless they contain material that is libellous or incites hatred) are applied generally I think is an obstacle to understanding the board. Can you judge the Moon Online entirely by its FAQ, or do you need to use the forum itself?
I don't really mean to be "snarky" here, but your comments above indicate a key difference between Barbelith and TMO.
Admittedly, the former is far larger, harder to manage and more ambitious -- a different kind of world, which we like to think means a better world. Post different. Post Barbelith -- whereas the latter is more like a loose group of people hanging out.
Barbelith is clearly, from your comments, totally up itself. You are discussing it as though it's a city-state. The very existence of a forum on "Policy" is symptomatic. Barbelith regards itself as some kind of experiment in community-building, with juries and judges, test-cases and precedents (Catgirl's Got The Liquor (previously Catgirl Takes Us Outside) vs Never Lie to Totenkopf (previously "Bush Loses Totenkopf"), Dec 2004)
Our FAQ, by contrast, is someone's christmas-cracker collection of weak old jokes about members who probably aren't even here anymore. We welcome libel and hatred because the place gets pretty dull with many people being real-life friends or lovers, and the rest just hating each other (mostly) secretly so as not to disturb the peace.
But I don't think the quality of the content, at its best and worst on both sides, is that different. TMO, on a good day, produces writing both serious and comic that beat the arse out of anything in that day's newspaper. Barbelith, on the Conversation, produces stuff on the level of a TMO "chat" thread between three drunks in the UK, US and Spain at 3am GMT.
It's a question of Barbelith's scope, which I admit does raise different challenges, and its very grand self-image. I do find it a little ironic and sad that I've been mocked or criticised twice on Barbelith for mentioning not-very-obscure examples from literature or cinema, and accused of show-off namedropping -- on a supposedly intellectual and elite board.
quote:As it happens, this time round "the experience of reading Philip Roth made me realise how poor comics are in comparison to literature" was seen as a post that did not actually add much of quality to the discussion.
I think this is just absurd. Firstly, you're misquoting. That wasn't my post at all. This was my post.
quote:I read this in about 10 minutes on the train and thought it was fun and eerie, and that Klarion was cutely Burtonesque. Then, having finished Klarion, I read Philip Roth's The Plot Against America for the next 10 minutes, and it just seemed so much more ambitious, substantial, solid and rich that I wondered why I even bothered reading comic books. This may sound facetious: I don't mean it as such. It seems a shame that the grandest project by one of our very best comic book authors seems so disposable and light as soon as you pick up a decent novel.
Secondly, how are you measuring "quality"? Here were some of the posts preceding mine.
quote:*SQUUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAL*
That looks like the shit.
quote:So many ideas! So many! I'm drowning! Metagroovified Field Go!
quote:Cool. Maybe I should start getting comics again, I haven't even got Vimanarama yet.
I hope, I really, really hope, that the Witch, doesn't end up being the traitor. That would just suxxor. (then again though, maybe I have a bias for witches, or it's because I thought Klarion was going to be my fave.)
I don't even have to be cleverly selective here. That's the first three posts. Here's the rest of that quality thread.
quote:Folks were saying how they didn't like the artwork. But the previews, especially page 4, are looking good to me.
BillR's a hoopy frood 23:40 / 13.04.05 Very pretty art work. Shades of "The Village," only less crappy.
Flyboy AKA Petey Shaftoe (prev. Petey Shaftoe) 01:03 / 14.04.05 I am gay for Klarion.
FinderWolf For Change 18:09 / 14.04.05 No one writes "AAAUUUUU" quite like Grant.
Looks great.
grant 23:05 / 14.04.05 That Slaughter Swamp makes me think all the locations might well overlap in some way... so I've started a Category:Seven Soldiers Locations on the wiki to try to map them.
Those hidden lines on the Guardian's subways have to lead to Castle Revolving, don't they? DON'T THEY??
Ganesh 23:17 / 14.04.05 I am gay for Klarion.
You're not gay for pay, then?
Klarion reminds me of a more sussed version of St Swithin's Day's Neurotic Boy Outsider...
Duncan Falconer 15:23 / 15.04.05 Man, I watched The Village last night.
Do think it may have had some effect on this, but god. I should've known better. M. Shight Nyamalan.
Pappuce 16:07 / 15.04.05 Isn't Klarion's home subterranean? Pretty sure I remember Grant saying it was. And I doanwanearno talk 'bout "But it's raining..."
Pappuce 16:24 / 15.04.05 Yep, just checked - definitely right about that'n. If it is near Slaughter Swamp, then it's under it. I think, however, that there's some locational crossing over with Guardian, so I imagine it's nearer New York.
The subterranean thing also explains the insular, isolationist vibe. I mean, Puritans? In the present day?
Boboss 16:31 / 15.04.05 Call me a cock, but I just assumed it was set in ye olde times.
I think Grant must've watched The Village.
Bad Grant.
What the fuck? You have quality control, and my post rang the reject buzzers?
So I characterised the typical Barbelith response as
quote:"sqeeeeeeeeeeeal I just joycreamed my pants about the gaycore art"
Read the posts I just quoted and try to tell me I was unfairly caricaturing. I was almost quoting verbatim.
I'm afraid I don't have enough energy to engage with Barbelith's high court and try to get anyone to modify their moderation policy. I have explained, and demonstrated I think, why I feel disillusioned with that board in particular, which was the one board I felt most drawn to. I feel 80% of the comments on Comics are pretty inane, and I disagree that my contributions are, in general, low quality. I also feel that for me to be accused of pretentious namedropping, twice, is ridiculous in terms of Barbelith's vision of itself as a think-tank.
As for the idea that I have some duty to look beyond the two forums I tended to visit -- Barbelith is named after an invention of GRANT MORRISON's. It exists because of comic books. The Comic Book forum should not be some backwater, but the heart of the community.
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
If there are any cute ones you can invite them over - leave the ***** there though
To be safe though, all Barbies please note:
"Any opinions, views and rantings exhibited by Black Mask do not express the views of this website" Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
NB. I don't think Purves is acting mental or making a fool out of himself. I should point that out, because NWOD you are being rather "bullying" yourself and I don't think it's accurate that Purves is looking really bad.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
I doubled over with lol when I read 'gaycore'. I loved it even more when someone seemed so upset as to brandish you a prick, just because they didn't think up a word like gaycore. The jealousy was dripping down my screen.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by kovacs: I don't think it's accurate that Purves is looking really bad.
How are we defining 'really', here?
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Well that's ok, I think he looks likes he rambling but no-one has to agree with me. I can live with being the only person who thinks so.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Also, he mentioned toy-throwing twice. D'you think he has some kind of problem?
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Are you sure though? Because I wouldn't be surprised to see video footage of Zem pole-dancing to present each and every post.
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
I'm liking "kidney", but in this case I'm repeating the term for clarity.
Just to be clear: the exact content of Black Mask's statements can be found here. The important statements are, in order:
Why would calling a negro a negro be considered racist?
You've never actually met a real black person, have you?
Now, it's possible that in this thread Black Mask was not being sarky when he said that "negroid" was better than "negro", and that he genuinely considered the historical flavour of "negro" to be a disadvantage in its use (not rocket science, but progress). If that is the case, I certainly accept that he does not in fact like calling black people negroes, and he can win that one.
Hooever, that doesn't change the fact that he lost his shit like a five-year old then, and lost his shit like a five-year old now ("holocaustly"?), over a pretty simple concept. The concept is this: that the question
quote: Why would calling a negro a negro be considered racist?
Makes no sense, because there's nothing that can be categorically and solely defined as a negro. Why would calling a black person a negro be considered racist? Because it would be using a term (which is considered racist when used as a term of address to black people) as a term of address to black people. So, if you throw in:
quote:That doesn't mean I get my jollies walking around Harlesden barking 'Negro!' at every black face I see.
We have There is nothing racist about calling a negro a negro, and if you think there is you must never have met a negro. On the other hand, I woudn't call a negro a negro. Presumably this would be because the negroes in question would not know that there was nothing racist about calling them negroes. Simple folk... possibly you have to show that you are definitely in no way a racist before you can be sure that the non-racist term "negro" will not spark an irrational reaction.
So, yes. Black Mask's position is incoherent, not to mention deeply weird. But he has now demonstrated that he's not really equipped to deal with dissent, so I think we may as well leave it there.
Kovacs: Oh, sure. I don't think that discussion is in any way a classic. The level of discussion in Comic Books is, as you know, wildly variable, and despite my best efforts without actually deleting people's posts for being content-light there's not a lot one can do except try to raise the level.
Point being, however, that there is no mechanism for making people immediately better yawn's been peddling the same "I am a West Scotland hardman" gag for about five years, now. It seems to make him happy. All I was trying to do was point out other situations in which people have been rude on Barbelith and also in which Grant Morrison has not been covered in white wee-wee, and the moderators have not gone in batons flailing.
So, yeah, Barbelith, or at least Barbelith's moderators, or possibly I alone, may be totally up itself/themselves/myself. It's certainly doing something different from a board made up primarily of friends and lovers, and trying to work out how exclusivity and inclusivity balance is a part of that. There are lots of people who aren't on Barbelith that I'd love to have on Barbelith, and lots of people who are on it that I could take or leave, but that's just me.
For reference: I didn't say that your posts were generally of low quality. I said that this one was not very useful, is all.
On Barbelith and Grant Morrison: Barbelith was named after a creation of Morrison's, six years ago or so. It's changed a lot since then, in terms of membership, focus and subject matter (and scripting language). Morrison is the subject of less fawning adulation (believe it or not), and comics are less central to the current membership. At the moment, there are people in the Comic Books forum who don't post much elsewhere, and people elsewhere who don't post much in the Comic Books forum. I don't see that as a huge problem, although it's always nice to be integrated. The way to make the Comic Books forum central is probably to raise the quality of the discussion, so other people who want to talk about comic books in the way you want to will get involved and/or want to join the board. Or, you know, have a cull. Or both. There may be better places to talk about comic books - god knows, there is too much hero worship, but I don't think that's unique or even rare - in which case either Barbelith goes to that place or that place comes to Barbelith. I'm happy either way. Personally, I'd change the name precisely so that we don't have people saying "hey! This place is called Barbelith! How dare you suggest that Seaguy is not better than Ulysses!"
So, if you're unhappy with Barbelith, my suggestion would be either to work on changing what you don't like or leave. Not in "my way or the highway" sense - people just drop out all the time, do other stuff, drop back in feeling refreshed and interested again or find other places to be. No point being there if it isn't fun.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
So, the autistic thing. What? Rain Man end?
Posted by doc d (Member # 781) on :
speaking as a negro, i find peter purves to be an idiot.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
You big black bully.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darryn.R:
"Any opinions, views and rantings exhibited by Black Mask do not express the views of this website"
Could you put this on the forum homepage? I'm glowing with pride.
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
Come on, Purves is alright. He (ze, sorry) has argued articulately in the face of mind-boggling black-mask wind-up logic. I wouldn't want to have to come on here alone as the sole representative of a community that's just been accused of "bullying" TMO's star contributor and four-years-running favourite poster. I think Purves has acted with creditable dignity, really.
Posted by jonesy999 (Member # 5) on :
lol
Posted by Roy (Member # 705) on :
If I could photoshop, I would do a burberry wearing darlek called 'Chavros'.
Doesn't add much to the thread, true, but it kind of continues my sci-fi offering of 'Negroid'.
Posted by fridgemagnet (Member # 134) on :
It did occur to me, kovacs, that you're on slightly dodgy ground when you take Tom Coates' Barbelith ad (referring to geeks) and munge it in with your experiences on the Comics and TV forums to draw an overall conclusion about Barbelith being up its own arse.
I mean, there are various justifiable reasons why one might say that Barbelith was up its own arse, but these two things are pretty seperate. If the comics geeks constituted the whole of Barbelith as represented in Mr Coates' ad, then there wouldn't be much need to specifically call for people in a certain area, would there?
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by fridgemagnet: when you take Tom Coates' Barbelith ad (referring to geeks) and munge it in with your experiences on the Comics and TV forums to draw an overall conclusion about Barbelith being up its own arse.
I mean, there are various justifiable reasons why one might say that Barbelith was up its own arse, but these two things are pretty seperate. If the comics geeks constituted the whole of Barbelith as represented in Mr Coates' ad, then there wouldn't be much need to specifically call for people in a certain area, would there?
I don't think I did refer to geeks. My reference to Mr Coates' advert (I prefer Person Coates but this is a democracy of taxonomies after all) was meant as evidence of Barbelith's grand and puffed-up self-image, which I haven't found justified in the content. And no I have not only read the Comics and Film fora. Those are just the boards I posted on.
quote: it endeavours (and in places succeeds) in being a place where you can have some of the highest quality discussions online with people who are prepared to engage and interrogate without being insulting. Members of the board tend towards the left or towards libertarianism, tend towards atheism or mysticism and are a real mix of creative individuals - from university lecturers, psychologists, artists, screen-writers, novelists...
... the extraordinary enthusiasm and multiplicity of perspectives from the rest of the board
Posted by fridgemagnet (Member # 134) on :
Fair enough. On what point would you say that the above wasn't true?
I think it's fair to say that Barbelith as a whole endeavours to be "a place where you can have some of the highest quality discussions online with people who are prepared to engage and interrogate without being insulting". Certainly this doesn't always work out. I don't see how that affects the aspiration towards that.
As far as "the extraordinary enthusiasm and multiplicity of perspectives from the rest of the board" goes... well, that might be on shakier ground as far as it makes a concrete claim rather than describing an aspiration, but enthusiasm is certainly present, and, well, multiplicity of perspectives... okay, I don't think Barbelith really shines specifically on that issue, but there are a number of different people there, it's not all pasty fatbeards and London-based alcies.
Basically I don't really see what the problem is. Tom advertises for new members based on what the board could be and what people would like it to be, without making claims that it already is like that. Oooh. Spankings galore are clearly deserved.
[ 25.04.2005, 17:35: Message edited by: fridgemagnet ]
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
I had a thoroughly enjoyable afternoon. Coates is welcome back here anytime.
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by fridgemagnet: Fair enough. On what point would you say that the above wasn't true?
I think it's fair to say that Barbelith as a whole endeavours to be "a place where you can have some of the highest quality discussions online with people who are prepared to engage and interrogate without being insulting". Certainly this doesn't always work out. I don't see how that affects the aspiration towards that.
No, it can't be said that his aspiration isn't valid, although I suppose you could argue Barbelith isn't trying very hard to be interrogating without insult, or the highest quality home of online debate. But as will be clear, this week I feel a little disillusioned with Barbelith. I wouldn't really condemn it outright. There is some good thoughtful content there, and certainly some intelligent people.
To aspire to be good is admirable -- still, I expect if I posted "I aspire to be the most intellectual and yet likeable member of any online bulletin board... scathing but never hurtful, expanding the minds of all those I meet without ever seeming to patronise", you might admire the intention but could still be right in calling me very puffed-up and arrogant. You could also say there was a bit of a gap between the theory and practice.
As for varied perspectives, the advert itself seems to contradict itself by categorising the typical Barbelith person -- suggesting that being among like-minded folk is part of the board's appeal, while also trying to make out there's a wide range of positions.
quote:Members of the board tend towards the left or towards libertarianism, tend towards atheism or mysticism and are a real mix of creative individuals - from university lecturers, psychologists, artists, screen-writers, novelists...
... the extraordinary enthusiasm and multiplicity of perspectives
As we've seen, Barbelith embraces what to some would seem ridiculous right-on approaches, with a number of people employing this horrible insult to English in "ze" when they can't guess someone's gender, and the etiquette guide stating that homophobia is considered a personal insult to gay members even if no gay people read it, even if those individuals don't care, even if there aren't any gay people on the board.
There are also far more people who believe in magic on Barbelith than would be "average" in a population sample.
It seemed to me that a majority of Barbelith posters were also so anti-Bush as to change their usernames in a kind of semi-technological, semi-mystical spell to curse the President's chances in the last US election.
As a final example, most people on Comics love most of Grant Morrison's output.
So, no, as you suggest yourself, I don't think the community's perspectives are that varied.
But I am not trying to hack the whole Barbelith concept apart here. I've simply become more aware, recently, of its shortcomings.
[ 25.04.2005, 17:48: Message edited by: kovacs ]
Posted by fridgemagnet (Member # 134) on :
I'm just... I'm really not getting these things. I find myself in the odd position of appearing to defend Barbelith when I certainly didn't come here to do so. (Technically I was a member here before I was on Barbelith, but whatever). It's just that if you're going to criticise a place I think it's important to do it on the right basis.
The use of "ze" is regularly debated and certainly not the standard; I don't use it and a lot of other people don't either. I don't see that the fact that this is a place in which some people use it is a bad thing. There's no *pressure* to do so. Similarly the fact that there are people who "believe in magic"; it's a board with a specific space for that, and oddly enough it's transformed my understanding of people who do, from considering them all deluded idiots to only considering some of them deluded idiots. Again, there's no pressure.
It's a board that's not tolerant of homophobic language, to a degree that I sometimes think indicates word-fetishism, but if that's the alternative to boards where "u fag, battyman fi dead" is considered acceptable discourse then fine. There are a lot of Real Live Homos in the world and an online area where one doesn't have to constantly explain why calling somebody a faggot might be considered offensive is something quite valuable, I'd say. I get tired enough of it on other forums as it is.
The Bush thing... that's just fluff isn't it? An internet meme (don't start on the proper definition of "meme", please God). Semi-mystical perhaps, but in the end there's very little there that you could point to as anything serious.
And I love Grant Morrison. In fact, he based King Mob on me.
I just don't see the problem here. It's a board. It has a setup that is slightly unusual due to the software, but really not *that* unusual. It has forums that cater to interests not common elsewhere (specifically talking about the Temple here). People make claims as to some sort of spirit that it possesses; this frequently happens when you have more than a few dozen regular posters anywhere.
I'm just not getting the issue here.
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
I was just expanding on your point below -- discussing the fact that there is a Barbelith "type", or a lot of common ground between many of the posters (and hence not all that much diversity) -- with a few examples from my experience.
quote:Originally posted by fridgemagnet: As far as "the extraordinary enthusiasm and multiplicity of perspectives from the rest of the board" goes... well, that might be on shakier ground as far as it makes a concrete claim rather than describing an aspiration, but enthusiasm is certainly present, and, well, multiplicity of perspectives... okay, I don't think Barbelith really shines specifically on that issue
I said many times I wasn't trying to attack the whole concept of Barbelith or even the way it works, as a whole.
I've made four main points, based on personal experience:
1. The two boards I mainly frequented are not currently living up to the promised standard of high quality debate, and seemed happiest with very banal comment.
2. On a board that self-identifies as intellectual and elite, I felt dismayed to be accused of pretentious name-dropping twice when I mentioned not-obscure literary or film texts.
3. I don't think the code of etiquette is consistently understood or adhered to.
4. I think the board is over-moderated in terms of "threadrot".
That's all. I don't want to repeat those points now, because it will be boring -- and moreover, you and Purves seemed inclined to at least accept some validity in those points if not agree with them.
I don't even think you and I have a disagreement between us, Fridgemagnet. I am very happy to accept that you're more favourable towards Barbelith than me just now, and I appreciate your defence or justification of it. I agree with many of your points and I got the impression you weren't rejecting most of mine.
[ 25.04.2005, 18:21: Message edited by: kovacs ]
Posted by Nina (Member # 800) on :
The problem with calling someone a negro is that it was used as a derogatory term for people simply because of the colour of their skin. So when you use the term you're only referencing thousand of years of slavery. What's not simply about that?
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
Wasn't it "nigger" that served as a derogatory term? I thought "negro" would have been the more liberal or indeed technically accurate equivalent, for many years.
"Negro"/"negroid" may not be a scientifically correct term now -- I admit I didn't know it had been phased out -- but surely for decades it was the accurate, objective term for people of that ethnic group?
It carries unwelcome connotations now -- mainly, for me, that the person using the word is deliberately or through ignorance sticking to outdated vocabulary when there are other words most black people prefer -- but is it really true to say that historically, negro was a racist word? That Mark Twain, for instance, was a racist for using it?
Or isn't it true that it was the acceptable word at one point, and that most people don't consider it acceptable now... so that anyone choosing to use it is being pigheaded or wilfully offensive?
To say that a term is racist because it describes the colour of someone's skin isn't true. For a start, "negro" would never have technically meant simply a dark skin colour -- it would have implied a certain type of facial features and hair, and perhaps also typical body shape, fat distribution and muscularity.
But doesn't "caucasian" also label a human being with a tendency to a certain skin colour, type of face, typical hair and eyes and characteristics of body shape?
A word that labels someone based on ethnicity is not racist per se -- or perhaps strictly speaking it's "racist" in that it defines based on "race" (if we're being that pedantic we'd argue that race isn't even a valid term, and that it should be ethnicity anyway) -- but it needn't be derogatory.
[ 25.04.2005, 18:49: Message edited by: kovacs ]
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
Well done n00bs for your interesting thread. Here are some definitions I found online.
quote:NEGROID 1. Of or relating to a purported human racial classification traditionally distinguished by brown to black pigmentation and often by tightly curled hair and including peoples indigenous to Africa south of the Sahara. No longer in scientific use. – n. 2. A member of this racial classification. No longer in scientific use.
2. is an anthropological term related to Negro, once in common use to describe indigenous Africans and their descendants throughout the African diaspora. As with most descriptors of race based on outmoded phenotypical standards, however, the term is often meaningless in various contexts and, though still in use, generally is considered scientifically and socially atavistic.
3. Negroid describes the race of humans primarily from Africa, and was one of the four major races as recognized by nineteenth century racial theories.
quote:NEGRO: 1. Black: a person with dark skin who comes from Africa (or whose ancestors came from Africa) relating to or characteristic of or being a member of the traditional racial division of mankind having brown to black pigmentation and tightly curled hair
2. A black person, esp. a person of African origin or decent.
So that's two current definitions that don't say the word is considered offensive or outdated.
quote: 3. The term used to refer to blacks of African origin. Related to the Spanish word for black, Negro, and the term used to describe African races, Negroid, Negro was in common use into the 1960s. The Black power and Black pride movements popularized the preferred term Afro-American during the late 1960s (Malcolm X had objected to Martin Luther King, Jr.'s use of the term Negro, proposing instead Afro- American). "African-American" emerged later, as did Native-American, Asian-American, etc.
"in common use into the 1960s". I get the impression that "Negro" was not a racist word until that point, and that it is therefore wrong to say "Negro" carries a legacy of racial hatred. No doubt "nigger" does, though nowadays that's problematised by the reappropriation of the word by some black people. But I am not convinced that "Negro" calls up a history of hate. I still get the sense it was the accurate and liberal word to use for people of that ethnicity, until quite recently (the 1960s).
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Would it help to point out that my friend, white in skin colour, described his features as negroid to explain his origin? His mother being black and his father being white meant that he appeared to be 'pasty' and still have tight curly hair, a broad nose and thick, full lips. So was the extent of his almost albino features that he was privy to racist conversations at school without anyone realising that his mother was african. His sisters, were born black so it made for a confusing time for his classmates. When I worked with him musically he even suggested that we do a cover of 'Don't call me nigger, whitey' as satire as it would have effectively been two white guys singing the song with him rapping Ice-Ts lines.
Posted by Modge (Member # 64) on :
quote:Originally posted by kovacs: But I am not convinced that "Negro" calls up a history of hate. I still get the sense it was the accurate and liberal word to use for people of that ethnicity, until quite recently (the 1960s).
The 1960s isn't really "quite recently" though, is it? Not really. I mean I doubt you have ever legitimately used the word Negro in your lifetime.
I don't think it calls up a "history of hate", although the fact that it is close to nigger in its sound and meaning, and that it is a word associated with slavery in some senses (think of Negro Spirituals for example)makes me think it is not an entirely neutral word.
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by Modge: The 1960s isn't really "quite recently" though, is it? Not really. I mean I doubt you have ever legitimately used the word Negro in your lifetime.
It is pretty fricken recently in terms of how long people of that ethnicity have been on the earth, and more pertinently, how long the term "negro" has been used to describe them.
quote:Negro "member of a black-skinned race of Africa," 1555, from Sp. or Port. negro "black," from L. nigrum (nom. niger) "black," of unknown origin. Use with a capital N- became general early 20c. (e.g. 1930 in "New York Times" stylebook) in ref. to U.S. citizens of African descent, but because of its perceived association with white-imposed attitudes and roles the word was ousted late 1960s in this sense by Black (q.v.). "Professor Booker T. Washington, being politely interrogated ... as to whether negroes ought to be called 'negroes' or 'members of the colored race' has replied that it has long been his own practice to write and speak of members of his race as negroes, and when using the term 'negro' as a race designation to employ the capital 'N' " ["Harper's Weekly," June 2, 1906]
As I read it, that's "negro meaning black person" dating back from 1555. So, it's only been out of use in that way for 40 years, a comparatively short time.
quote:it is a word associated with slavery in some senses (think of Negro Spirituals for example)makes me think it is not an entirely neutral word.
Being associated with slavery doesn't make it negative or racist, though. I assume black slaves "self-identified" as negroes. African-American people now don't always speak of slavery in entirely negative terms -- that is, some individuals might talk about the pride they have "as a people" in coming so far from slavery, and overcoming such an incredible cultural disadvantage in just a few generations. As I understand it, slavery is part of many history curricula because it's considered important for African-American children and white Americans to know about this aspect of the country's past. So slavery in itself isn't a topic that poisons every word associated with it.
Similarly, in my limited understanding the "Negro Spiritual" was an important part of black culture in terms of expressing a group identity and community, voicing protest and lament, and perhaps (I might be wrong) also referring back to African tradition.
Posted by Nina (Member # 800) on :
quote:Being associated with slavery doesn't make it negative or racist, though
If you are caucasian and you are using the term to describe someone who is black or African-American then its connotations do make it negative because it is a direct reference to a time when people were enslaved for the colour of their skin. I'm sorry Kovacs but that's unavoidable. It becomes racist, not only because it's a direct reference to skin colour, thus making it discriminatory (and racism is discrimination and not abuse) but because of all of the things that are unavoidably linked to the word and because it's not a descriptor that's accepted by the community at large. We are not talking about a word that is in use, we are talking about a word that for centuries was used by people who kept humans who they labelled inferior beings and expected to them to serve. If you're part of that minority you can use words that were adopted by others in a bad way but if you're outside of that ethnicity then you'd better be bloody careful because you don't have the right.
Posted by Nina (Member # 800) on :
By the way you might want to read this Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nina: If you are caucasian and you are using the term to describe someone who is black or African-American then its connotations do make it negative because it is a direct reference to a time when people were enslaved for the colour of their skin.
I'm not sure about this. If it's been in use from 1555 until the late 1960s to describe black people, then the use of "Negro" isn't associated only with slavery. We can see from the above quotation that a black person was choosing to use the term in 1903.
Slavery was outlawed in 1865, a full century before the term "Negro" was deemed generally unacceptable. So it was not merely a term used as part of the slave trade.
Now I agree it's not an acceptable term. It has been replaced by other terms that most black people seem to prefer. But for quite some time after the abolition of slavery, "Negro" was clearly not considered a racist word.
"Coloured person" is also not acceptable now. That's not because it has associations of slavery. It's not acceptable because it's widely regarded that black people prefer another term.
I don't think you are right here, Nina. This sort of thing is difficult ground to argue, because you can always accuse the person disagreeing with you of being racist, but history and logic seems against you here.
Most of us will surely share the view that "Negro" is not an appropriate term. But we may as well keep our reasons for that accurate.
quote:
I'm sorry Kovacs but that's unavoidable. It becomes racist, not only because it's a direct reference to skin colour, thus making it discriminatory (and racism is discrimination and not abuse)
I believe you're wrong here also. "Black" is also a direct reference to skin colour. It's not racist. "African-American" is also a reference to skin colour (or, more correctly, as I said above, "ethnicity") but it's not racist. "Caucasian" is a direct reference to skin colour. It's not racist.
"Negro" is not unacceptable simply because it refers to skin colour. Every term for a black person refers to skin colour and other physical features.
quote: because it's not a descriptor that's accepted by the community at large.
This is the real reason.
quote: We are not talking about a word that is in use, we are talking about a word that for centuries was used by people who kept humans who they labelled inferior beings and expected to them to serve.
I believe, as I noted, it was also used by black slaves. I also believe it was used by white liberals and blacks in the 20th century, as a word not intended to carry any racial slur.
I can understand wanting to cast off the historical associations of "Negro" in that it was used during slavery, whereas "African American" was not.
But the reason for dumping "Negro" was not, I think, solely because it was a term used during slavery. If that was the case, why did "coloured" also pass out of use?
quote:colored person n : a United States term for Blacks that is now considered offensive [syn: colored]
quote:With the political consciousness that emerged from the political and social ferment of the late 1960s and early 1970s, Negro fell into disfavor among many American blacks. It had taken on a moderate, accommodationist, even Uncle Tomish, connotation.
The period was a time when growing numbers of blacks in the U.S., particularly black youth, celebrated their blackness and their historical and cultural ties with the African continent. They defiantly embraced black as a group identifier—a term they themselves had repudiated only two decades earlier—a term often associated in English with things negative and undesirable, proclaiming, "Black is beautiful."
Italics and bold mine. Does it say the term was considered offensive because it was used during slavery? It does not.
quote: If you're part of that minority you can use words that were adopted by others in a bad way but if you're outside of that ethnicity then you'd better be bloody careful because you don't have the right.
That's an argument many of us will have heard, and generally I agree with it so I didn't need it aggressively pointed out to me.
[ 25.04.2005, 21:21: Message edited by: kovacs ]
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nina: By the way you might want to read this
You insult me by implying I wasn't entirely aware of this basic information
A number of studies conducted in the United States have found that Black and African American are the preferred labels for ethnic/racial self-designation by Blacks.
and you suggest you haven't done more than glance at my posts, where I use the terms African American and black (Black, if you prefer) repeatedly. I don't need your Racial Sensitivity 101.
Posted by Electric Boogaloo (Member # 799) on :
It's kind of shitty to just describe people by the colour of their skin, isn't it? That's the real offence here - that someone is assuming that there's no better way to refer to someone else by the colour of their cover. "Negro" might have been be accurate in a scientific sense if years of go forth and multiply hadn't smudged the lines between caucasian, negroid and mongaloid* types forever.
Now we need, y'know, better words to describe people. That said, going into a shit-fit or taking a condescending tone when someone brings it up isn't going to help anyone, it's just going to lead to a forum shit fight.
*I don't see anyone arguing that "mong" isn't an insult. Y'know.
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by Electric Boogaloo: It's kind of shitty to just describe people by the colour of their skin, isn't it? That's the real offence here - that someone is assuming that there's no better way to refer to someone else by the colour of their cover.
Now we need, y'know, better words to describe people.
In real life we don't usually describe someone just by the colour of their skin, if we know them at all. I don't think that means terms to designate ethnicity are offensive in themselves.
If someone referred to me only as "a white guy" I'd feel a bit slighted, because I am more than that, but whiteness is still a part of my identity and it would be a useful way of pointing me out at my local gym.
Posted by Nina (Member # 800) on :
quote:I don't need your Racial Sensitivity 101.
Well sorry Kovacs, I assumed you hadn't read this kind of thing considering that you didn't know that the word 'negro' had been phased out. I also don't understand why you're arguing for words that no one wants to use. I thought a source like that might be genuinely helpful to you.
Posted by doc d (Member # 781) on :
when did it all get so fucking tofu round here?
jesus wept, you'd think we were all card carrying members of the NF/BNP looking to burn niggers and pakis.
african-american is being phased out of usage. the term most black people involved in the civil rights struggle are using is "black". well angela davis is trying to phase out the usage of african american.because otherwise you don't encompass those from the caribbean, other americas. but then she's also involved in broadening the civil rights struggle to include anybody who is being oppressed by the political system of the USA. and that in itself is causing friction among the factions.
those that aren't involved in civil rights issues, or see civil rights issues in america as only affecting the black population use the term "african american". in fact you could probably argue that african-american is the new white middle class way of saying nigger.
are we going to start using "ze" and stop slinging around playground insults like "your mum's a mong" or "ret" or "pissuparopefuckstick", while free wheeling on the limitless topics of conversation that are a day on tmo?
eta : to make it read, a little, better.
[ 25.04.2005, 23:28: Message edited by: doc d ]
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
I don't know. The last person to advocate the use of 'negro' as some sort of neutral term was Samuelnorton - which ought to provide some clue as to how 'neutral' it actually is.
Brandishing dictionary definitions is a thoroughly inadequate way of trying to pin down the exact flavour of the use of 'negro' - which, in current the idiom, has a pseudoscientific, evasive quality to it. One can easily imagine a BNP candidate working on his election literature substituting 'negro' for other terms in order to avoid charges of racism.
Can you imagine conducting a conversation at a party that went along the lines of: "Who was that guy you introduced me to before?" "Which one?" "The negro."
...not unless you were addicted to being insufferably arch, surely.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: which ought to provide some clue as to how 'neutral' it actually is.
Sure, but if you show up on a thread taking me to task for my cavalier use of language and have a pop at me as your opening gambit, you know, don't expect a pat on the back.
Posted by Roy (Member # 705) on :
I think we need to invent a word to use if we are unsure about a persons colour. I propose: Template.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
How about: Magnolia? Magnolia's pretty inoffensive.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Magnolioid?
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
Cro-Magnolioid Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Ooh,look. Camel-toe.
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: being Jewish is not the same thing as being black,
True.
Posted by Carter (Member # 426) on :
It can be though. So!
Posted by Carter (Member # 426) on :
quote:Originally posted by Electric Boogaloo: It's kind of shitty to just describe people by the colour of their skin, isn't it? That's the real offence here - that someone is assuming that there's no better way to refer to someone else by the colour of their cover.
I think this is completely wrong, and shows how a great deal of ultra-liberal handwringing is actually born of a subconscious racism. Saying that calling someone "black" is bad implies that there is something intrinsically wrong with being black. If colour really doesn't matter, there should be no problem using it, as kovacs says, as an identifier. Note not "the" identifier. As some have alluded to, no-one's taking offense on my behalf when called "white" as a discriminator in Tooting - nor "that bloody tall bloke" in most groups.
Electric Boogaloo - you, Zir, are a racist. You probably don't mean to be - you're a product of your upbringing - but you realy should try to tone it down a bit.
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nina:
quote:I don't need your Racial Sensitivity 101.
Well sorry Kovacs, I assumed you hadn't read this kind of thing considering that you didn't know that the word 'negro' had been phased out. I also don't understand why you're arguing for words that no one wants to use. I thought a source like that might be genuinely helpful to you.
I find that very hard to believe, you fausse-naive little fraud. There is a world of difference between not realising a scientific term to describe an ethnicity ("negroid") has been phased out -- I don't tend to use any such terms, and I wouldn't know if "kelvin" had been phased out as a unit of measurement either -- and knowing the currently-acceptable term for black people, which is something many Londoners would use every day.
In a post above, prior to your stupid "helpful" link, I use black or African-American many times
I assume black slaves "self-identified"... African-American people now ...important for African-American children
Also prior to your link, I posted this:
[Negro] carries unwelcome connotations now -- mainly, for me, that the person using the word is deliberately or through ignorance sticking to outdated vocabulary when there are other words most black people prefer
If I take a very generous stance, I can understand how you might have skimmed my posts, ignoring the above and only catching your eye on this line
Negro"/"negroid" may not be a scientifically correct term now -- I admit I didn't know it had been phased out
but what I meant here was that I believed "negroid" was still used in scientific circles as the equivalent of "caucasian", until corrected earlier on the thread. That doesn't mean I believed either "negroid" or "negro" were acceptable terms in everyday life.
You have shown yourself to be ignorant but you should try not to LIE too.
eta: As for arguing for words nobody wants to use. Most of us agree that "negro" has no place in contemporary society. However, I don't see why we shouldn't understand its history and the reasons for its phasing-out.
I suggested that
1. Negro was used as a "scientific", objective, neutral word for African-Americans by liberals and black people, for 100 years after the abolition of slavery in the US. Its history is not therefore wholly associated with racism and slavery.
2. Negro was phased out because it was associated with moderation and accomodation, and was not considered militant or positive enough. It was a white man's term. That isn't quite the same as it being rejected because it was steeped in the history of slavery.
You cannot pretend or try to imply that I'm a racist (as you are hinting here with your sly "I don't know why you'd want to defend this word") just because I believe we may as well be accurate.
[ 26.04.2005, 05:33: Message edited by: kovacs ]
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: I don't know. The last person to advocate the use of 'negro' as some sort of neutral term was Samuelnorton - which ought to provide some clue as to how 'neutral' it actually is.
Brandishing dictionary definitions is a thoroughly inadequate way of trying to pin down the exact flavour of the use of 'negro' - which, in current the idiom, has a pseudoscientific, evasive quality to it. One can easily imagine a BNP candidate working on his election literature substituting 'negro' for other terms in order to avoid charges of racism.
Can you imagine conducting a conversation at a party that went along the lines of: "Who was that guy you introduced me to before?" "Which one?" "The negro."
...not unless you were addicted to being insufferably arch, surely.
You have also misread or lazily read my posts, Ben, which is even more disappointing.
I have made it very clear that I know "negro" is not an acceptable term. I have also made it very clear that I know "negroid" is not a scientific term.
I expect you would accept dictionary definitions if they tallied with your own ideas. The main one I've been repeating is this:
quote:The term used to refer to blacks of African origin. Related to the Spanish word for black, Negro, and the term used to describe African races, Negroid, Negro was in common use into the 1960s. The Black power and Black pride movements popularized the preferred term Afro-American during the late 1960s
I don't see how you could find offence in it. That there were two current dictionary definitions not labelling "negro" outmoded and offensive is just a point of interest -- in no way was I using them to justify the word or claim it as neutral.
What I did argue was that the word was the neutral or liberal word for black people for a considerable period of US history. Not that this justifies its use now, any more than I would advocate using "Oriental" or "handicapped" -- for the simple reason that I know the groups of people referred to by those words prefer other words to describe themselves.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
Well, it was certainly the one sanctioned by the authorities and media for use by whites in relation to blacks - I'm not so sure whether blacks would have used it quite so readily to describe themselves or others (think Malcolm X and Dr King used 'black' rather than 'negro', for example).
Thinking about it, some southern whites would pronounce the word "neegrah" - subverting the sanctioned term and making it perfectly clear what their attitude towards the black population was, while remaining within the confines of the official language.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Jesus. You think you know someone...
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
You'll have to do better than that - supporting your wild assertons by linking to 'evidence' on obscure right-wing websites does nothing for your already threadbare reputation.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Are they like the Travelling Wilberrys?
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
I tend to go by not saying 'a' in front of a descrptive term. When describing somebody or referring to them, to say he/she is 'a' is categorising them in an exclusive way.. It's mental indexing. I wouldn't have thought it mattered whether or not you said a negro, a black, a coloured person, because all are defining them in a categorical way. It defines your relationship with them, be it positive or negative. If you take out the 'a', as in, he/she is black, then that characteristic is owned by them. It builds in an element of equality, because you are not in fact defining them, but describing them, granting them an equal status of possessing characteristics, rather than living within them.
We've always played with these terms on TMO - the difference between being gay and being a gay. It denotes your ability to see person first and characteristics second. He is an asylum seeker, he is seeking asylum. The number of people seeking asylum, the number of asylum seekers.
[ 26.04.2005, 06:14: Message edited by: Dr. Benway ]
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Where were you yesterday, fagboy?
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
To an extent, you could see it as a failure of language that it is easier to classify than to describe characteristics, but on the other, it's just the way our brains work. However, I believe that by using the more 'human' terminology, you can subconciously change the way you think. It's like that form of therapy where you have to change your thought and speech patterns..cognitive exercise. We all have the ability to do it, which in itself is quite impressive.
That's kind of the original point of political correctness, but I don't think that you can impose it on somebody who doesn't want to face or challenge their cognition.
[ 26.04.2005, 06:19: Message edited by: Dr. Benway ]
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
I don't think Boogalo _is_ a racist - I suspect he's just a bit confused (incidentally, Boogaloo, "mong" is an insult for its associations with "mongolism", not Mongolia). Pretty obviously, if we assume that "negro" and "black" are two terms, one of which is very hard to use without racist implications and one of which is not, then identification through skin colour is not necessarily racist (if we assume further that black and negro primarily identify through skin colour).
Loving the way this has turned into a Barbelith discussion.
Annnyway. Kovacs - you raise some interesting points about the term "negro", but I think you're kind of missing something. 1555 to 1960 - that pretty much defines the period up to the point where Lyndon Johnson signed Executive Order 11246, Nixon made the Philadelphia Order, the civil rights amendments were signed, and so on. I'm not sure how far you can say that a group of people in a society "self-identify" when they don't have access, for example, to equal education, equal civil rights... there was a long gap between the abolition and, say <i>Board versus Brown</i>, you know?
Your distinction of "negro" and "nigger" is also I think historically slightly off. Mark Twain's not a bad example, here - Huck Finn calls people niggers without pejorative intent also - it's just a descriptive term to him, and nobody asks the people who are being called nigger, or indeed provides the impression that they have any say in what they are being called.
It's also worth noting that "negro" was never quite just about skin colour, or about facial features, physionomy et al, of course - it was about imposed social grouping. There's a lot of interesting stuff about passing after the abolition of slavery that we could look at here, which might also cast some light on the idea you seem to be espousing that there is a sharp break in race relations and the treatment of Black people in the US after abolition, which is not supported by history.
So, recap. "Negro" might be considered in the 19th century by white people as a more "polite" term for Black people in the US than "nigger". It was adopted by post-abolition black community leaders not necessarily because it was the term they liked best, but because it was a comprehensible term used by people with access to the white mainstream who were also sympathetic to the cause of black people. However, since abolition the development of black people (in the US) in terms of the law and of society more generally has shifted consistently. One of the watersheds of this process was the civil rights movement's successes of the 60s and 70s, which among other things ended segregated schooling and provided access to what had previously been white-only institutions. The process of working out how to work this out is ongoing, obviously. However, I don't personally see a big role for the word "negro" outside discussions of cultural and social history. However, a lot depends on your priorities.
Posted by Carter (Member # 426) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: Loving the way this has turned into a Barbelith discussion.
This has turned into a discussion, you patronising fuck.
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: Loving the way this has turned into a Barbelith discussion.
Yor right we niver done tawked about brainy stuff bfore u came along.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
I like the way Barbelith styles itself as intermellectural and yet considers Jonathan Creek and Mr Norrell a suitable topic for serious discussion on its books forum.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Can you imagine? He was up all night checking that shit.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
No, it's true. Before Barbelith, people just went LOL.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
ben -as an aside - "The Kid Stays In The Picture" by Robert Evans. Worth a look.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
Bless you Benway. In return, can I recommend Hanif Kureishi's blisteringly intense sex vs mortality flick Yo' Mother? I taped it at Christmas but only just got round to watching it at the weekend.
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: I like the way Barbelith styles itself as intermellectural and yet considers Jonathan Creek and Mr Norrell a suitable topic for serious discussion on its books forum.
And! Considers mentioning Philip Roth as an unacceptable level of intellectual showboating. High brow!
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
quote: This has turned into a discussion, you patronising fuck.
Actually, I just meant that half the people had come over from Barbelith. Do you think you might be applying specific and very personal readings in order to justify feelings of antagonism?
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
I've occasionally thought of TMO as a single entity with MPD. Now, we have a shrink. Cool.
Posted by Roy (Member # 705) on :
When do we talk about the queers?
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
When the rest of them get here.
Posted by Roy (Member # 705) on :
yeah but no but i aint no queer but if i was it shouldn't matter because you are like being a total racialist what with your negative word usage like what martin luther king said so shut up! don't give me evils
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
thanks ben. I like these inter-board spats. The snipers, the beserkers. The unseen evil general, the kidnapped princess. It's all so D&D, but often ends in real sex.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Seen, Roid.
Posted by Carter (Member # 426) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult:
quote: This has turned into a discussion, you patronising fuck.
Actually, I just meant that half the people had come over from Barbelith. Do you think you might be applying specific and very personal readings in order to justify feelings of antagonism?
No. Define "half". Why haven't you picked up on any other of the posts pulling you up on this little bit of wankery?
Posted by Roy (Member # 705) on :
I think its time we rooted out these Barbelithers in our midst
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: Actually, I just meant that half the people had come over from Barbelith. Do you think you might be applying specific and very personal readings in order to justify feelings of antagonism?
Not that personal, surely, given that a few other people read it in exactly the same way as Carter - in fact that back-track you offered doesn't really make sense. For one - it would only really make sense calling it a Barbelith discussion in the way you describe if all the people involved were from Barbelith, which clearly wasn't the case. So I don't think it's unreasonable for people to infer your comment was referring to content rather than posters - as it's the only way it really makes sense.
Secondly, even if you really did mean what you claim, it's still patronising and uncouth to declare that you're "loving it" now other Barbeloids have arrived. Like turning up at a party and declaring it shit until your own mates turn up.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Careful, Carter, he's a tricky one. It's almost as if he can see into your heart...
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: Actually, I just meant that half the people had come over from Barbelith. Do you think you might be applying specific and very personal readings in order to justify feelings of antagonism?
No, I don't think that's the case at all. I think that perhaps it was the smugness of your tone, and the self congratulatory choice of phrase that got so many peoples' backs up. Perhaps you might like to have more of a care about you when posting on other peoples' forums, and acknowledge that perhaps you might be assessed by the members of that forum in such a way that specifically reflects the fact you're from another board which prides itself on, and I'm sorry if you don't like to hear this, prides itself on pretending to be better than any other forum out there. Especially when the only thing your forum seems to offer over and above any other, is an overly oppressive moderating team, and forum members who will argue at length about absolutely nothing, simply for the sake of having something to say, even when the point, if such a thing was ever apparent in the first place, has long since become lost. Perhaps this isn't fair, but I certainly wouldn't think that the reaction was anything unusual. Especially when you've already proven yourself to be arrogant, pedantic, and proud of it - traits which are immediately associated with your forum of origin. Good attempt at turning it round though, I'll give you that. Just try harder next time not to behave like such a twat and perhaps you'll get a better response.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
so, anyway, this chick gets a job at the tickle-me-elmo factory, and she's right at the end of the production line. Not long after she joins, the boss lady notices that the supply is getting all fucked, and basically this new lady isn't pulling her weight. So, she goes over to see her to find out what gives, and she's got this big pile of elmo toys next to her. On closer inspection, the boss lady sees that the new chick is sewing a little pouch and two marbles into the crotch area. So, the boss lady has to call up this chick and explain to her that she was supposed to be giving the dolls two test tickles!! Posted by Vogon Poetess (Member # 164) on :
I am reminded of the time over New Year when Thorn tried to jew us at Scrabble by putting "blix" over a triple word score. He claimed it's what the South Africans call their workforce.
Posted by Carter (Member # 426) on :
I don't know what a very personal reading is, anyway.
Hey! Purvert! What's a very personal reading?
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
For fuck's sake Davis, every time I try and make a point, you get in there first. One more little outburst like that and you're off my forum.
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: I think you're kind of missing something. 1555 to 1960 - that pretty much defines the period up to the point where Lyndon Johnson signed Executive Order 11246, Nixon made the Philadelphia Order, the civil rights amendments were signed, and so on. I'm not sure how far you can say that a group of people in a society "self-identify" when they don't have access, for example, to equal education, equal civil rights...
Maybe this is naive but I thought self-identify meant, basically, "what you define yourself as." You don't need equal civil rights to define your own social subjectivity -- minority or oppressed groups can surely claim a label and identity for themselves. The reappropriation of "Paki" by some British Asians is a way of self-identifying, isnt it? It's a move in the face of racism, not a name picked on an equal playing field.
You have a good point that "Negro" was cast out during the period of black civil rights struggle and some achievement of greater equality -- though I did (or my source did) suggest this above:
quote:With the political consciousness that emerged from the political and social ferment of the late 1960s and early 1970s, Negro fell into disfavor among many American blacks. It had taken on a moderate, accommodationist, even Uncle Tomish, connotation.
Ben's suggestion that Dr King and Malcolm X might not have favoured the term "Negro" is also anticipated here.
Moreover, do African-Americans have equal rights in the US now? Aren't they still considered a minority, held down to some extent by perhaps less visible structures of white expectation, black expectation, class background, subtle prejudices? Does this mean they can't "self-identify" with a certain term or label? Surely not, because the accepted term for black people has changed several times since the 1960s and is apparently changing back again from African-American.
quote:Your distinction of "negro" and "nigger" is also I think historically slightly off. Mark Twain's not a bad example, here - Huck Finn calls people niggers without pejorative intent also - it's just a descriptive term to him, and nobody asks the people who are being called nigger, or indeed provides the impression that they have any say in what they are being called.
Fair point, I was forgetting Jim is called "Nigger Jim" in the novel (isn't he?) and entertaining some kind of false memory that he was called a Negro.
quote:There's a lot of interesting stuff about passing after the abolition of slavery that we could look at here, which might also cast some light on the idea you seem to be espousing that there is a sharp break in race relations and the treatment of Black people in the US after abolition, which is not supported by history.
True of course, and a useful correction to what I said. But equally it's not the case that there was a sharp break after 1967, and that everything's hunky-dory now. "African-American" is used by whites and blacks in the US, in a period (now) when racism still exists. That doesn't mean the term is charged with racist connotations, in my opinion, though perhaps in 2099 it might be seen that way.
quote: So, recap. "Negro" might be considered in the 19th century by white people as a more "polite" term for Black people in the US than "nigger". It was adopted by post-abolition black community leaders not necessarily because it was the term they liked best, but because it was a comprehensible term used by people with access to the white mainstream who were also sympathetic to the cause of black people. However, since abolition the development of black people (in the US) in terms of the law and of society more generally has shifted consistently. One of the watersheds of this process was the civil rights movement's successes of the 60s and 70s, which among other things ended segregated schooling and provided access to what had previously been white-only institutions. The process of working out how to work this out is ongoing, obviously. However, I don't personally see a big role for the word "negro" outside discussions of cultural and social history. However, a lot depends on your priorities.
I have no argument with any of this -- indeed I thank you for the interesting ideas.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
the chick on the end of the line was giving them testicles, not test tickles as originally stipulated by her employers.
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
For fuck's sake people. You are not doing TMO any favours by giving Purves absolutely no room, paying him no courtesy and snapping at the worst interpretation of anything he writes.
I also thought the "Barbelith discussion" was a smug "funny we're bringing that kind of quality over to TMO now" -- at first.
On second reading it becomes very clear that Purves means "how ironic, I come to TMO and I seem to be arguing with someone from the 'lith, about his persona on my home board."
Give the guy a break -- some of this really is pointless bullying and Purves is honestly the "best" new member we have seen in some time, in terms of his patience, intelligence and energy. What's the purpose in acting like a twat to new people when they're actually OK even in the face of endless sniping and wind-up? How is TMO ever going to become more vibrant and interesting, if this is the response decent new contributors get?
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
quote:Originally posted by Carter: I don't know what a very personal reading is, anyway.
peter perves a pick of proper pipsqueeks
[ 26.04.2005, 07:25: Message edited by: New Way Of Decay ]
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Perhaps Kovacs is right. I'll take the picture down immediately.
Posted by jonesy999 (Member # 5) on :
I agree with Benway. The girl on the end of the line seems to have been confused by the similarities between "test tickles" and "testicles" - an easy mistake to make when you read them out loud and speak quickly. Perhaps a written sign would help the thickoid in future.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by jonesy999: thickoid
Careful, we've got company.
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by kovacs: I also thought the "Barbelith discussion" was a smug "funny we're bringing that kind of quality over to TMO now" -- at first.
Well there you go - I don't think Purves helped himself by adding another jibe rather than acknowledge a poorly turned phrase. A good rule of thumb is that other members shouldn't feel harrassed, and he should have considered arrogant statements about types of people who might be represented on the board may be considered direct harrassment of the individuals concerned. I'm not interested in whether it seems like a board war, sniping whatever - if you feel that someone has misinterpreted something you've said to be pompous or arrogant or whatever, the best thing he could have done is apologise quickly for the poor choice of words, apologise to anyone he might have offended and try and restate the comment again in clearer language.
I mean - that's just my thoughts on it.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
I blame London.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
normally in jobs like that though, they'll show you how to do it, and monitor you for a while to make sure that you've done it correctly. When the boss lady hired the chick on the end of the line, she must have gone, 'your job is to give the elmo dolls two test tickles, alright?', and then not even followed it up. It's bad management that leads to awkward situations like the one described above. A sign would do the trick, but I think better training would promote greater efficiency as well as basic competency.
[ 26.04.2005, 07:41: Message edited by: Dr. Benway ]
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
quote: No. Define "half". Why haven't you picked up on any other of the posts pulling you up on this little bit of wankery?
Well, I hadn't read them. I'm not sitting here hitting refresh, dude. I'm having a quiet day recovering from a holiday and replying when I have a moment. VP, Kovacs, me, Nina, Electric Boogaloo... members of Barbelith. And more were coming all the time. Specifically, there was an argument at the time I was writing that between Kovacs and Nina which had gone on for some time, so it just felt like Barbelith. And I was "loving it" because it was funny that a thread which had started with "how pompous Barbelith is, with its intellectual posing" had turned into two members of Barbelith arguing about racist/non-racist terminology. So, yeah. You can believe that I am sneering at you if you like - that's your freedom to feel oppressed - but it wasn't my intention to suggest that you were senseless halfwits otherwise. I've been reading and enjoying some of the threads here, although it looks like I'm not going to get a decent hearing if I contribute to them.
quote:And! Considers mentioning Philip Roth as an unacceptable level of intellectual showboating. High brow!
Well, one person thought Kovey was showing off by talking about reading Philip Roth in a thread about Klarion the Witch Boy #1. The discussion of books and comic books has now moved to another thread, where it can breathe. Not quite the same thing, unless you judge entire boards by one post by one member, in which case we're all in trouble. I'm wondering why this "intellectual" thing is pushing so many buttons here - I'd certainly agree that I find some of the claims made for Barbelith a bit silly and at times embarrassing, but the all the angry Eton-and-Oxbridge stuff back in this thread seems a bit... disproportionate.
As it happens, as a board Barbelith is probably not at the level it used to be, for lots of different reasons. Different people on Barbelith have different ideas of what should be discussed and at what level - down to attempts by some of the more misguided (IMHO) members to try to shut off any non-adoring comments about Grant Morrison. It's just a message board, which is trying, as Fridgemagnet said above, something a bit different, using the technology of the board and a particular approach. It's offering a slightly different experience of Internet discussion - not wildly different, just a bit different. Again, I'm not sure exactly where the anxiety is there.
On Jonathon Crake and Mr. Norrel, or whatever it's called: not having read the book I wouldn't know how intermerlectual it was, but I seem to recall Vogon Poetess earlier saying she had enjoyed the discussion of Harry Potter on Barbelith. That might mean that sometimes even bad books (or books that are not generally recognised as great - as I say, haven't read) can be the source of good discussion. Or it might mean that you think Vogon Poetess isn't very clever, I suppose. That's not something I'd want to get involved in.
It's primarily different strokes for different folks, isn't it? The first time Black Mask spat his dummy, he got the response:
quote: Another (thing about Barbelith) is that we are, in the Revolution areas (Head Shop, Switchboard and Lab, primarily) often a bit sensitive, some would say oversensitive, about terminology.
That's an acknowledged thing. It might not be to everyone's taste. Fortunately, there are plenty of other places on the Internet offering different experiences. The Moon Online is one of them, Barbelith is another. I don't really understand why the existence of somewhere else on the Internet is causing such upset.
So, yeah. I find some of the wording about Barbelith a bit cringeworthy, some of the things said on Barbelith pretty dumb and other things incomprehensibly outside my experience or ability to discuss. But it's still got some interesting people saying things that I find interesting, and it's still aspiring (with varying degrees of success) to maintain a space which functions in a particular way.
Kovacs: Oh, sure - didn't mean to suggest that everything was wonderful in the garden now; only that there was a lengthy period in the US after the abolition of slavery where black people as a general group continued to experience not just disproportionate poverty and lack of opportunity but also legal segregation from white people and specifically from the resources of white academia and society, which is, although not legally enshrined in the same way, certainly still an issue.
[ 26.04.2005, 07:49: Message edited by: The Peter Purves cargo cult ]
Posted by squeegy (Member # 136) on :
You'd have to wonder where she got the materials to make the testicles.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
I know! It beggars belief.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
You're playing the 'blame game' Benway. In this situation, the manager might not have had any problems with communication with previous candidates, tickling each Elmo once and then again to confirm that the product is working and ready to package. Ultimately, there's a loop hole that allowed the english language to be misconstrued so it would be important to have some written instructions to hand for clarification. A sign could be ordered, but for instance, if it were ordered over the phone, you could well be delivered a sign that says 'All negro slaves must give each Elmo two testicles'
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
quote: A good rule of thumb is that other members shouldn't feel harrassed
I hate to be snippy, but the suggestion that I have sex with children? Harrassy.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
What's wrong with that? Bigot!
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: Well there you go - I don't think Purves helped himself by adding another jibe rather than acknowledge a poorly turned phrase. A good rule of thumb is that other members shouldn't feel harrassed, and he should have considered arrogant statements about types of people who might be represented on the board may be considered direct harrassment of the individuals concerned. I'm not interested in whether it seems like a board war, sniping whatever - if you feel that someone has misinterpreted something you've said to be pompous or arrogant or whatever, the best thing he could have done is apologise quickly for the poor choice of words, apologise to anyone he might have offended and try and restate the comment again in clearer language.
Is this a spoof on the Barbelith faqs or do you 'mean it'? If everyone on tmo had to tiptoe around, not upsetting notoriously volatile posters like Ringo, Carter and Black Mask, there wouldn't be much in the way of chewy content left now would there?
Posted by Carter (Member # 426) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: [QUOTE]You can believe that I am sneering at you if you like - that's your freedom to feel oppressed - but it wasn't my intention to suggest that you were senseless halfwits otherwise. I've been reading and enjoying some of the threads here, although it looks like I'm not going to get a decent hearing if I contribute to them.
I find this bizarre. You trying to be patronising does not make me feel oppressed. Perhaps I'm just not sensitive enough.
Although you certainly are, if you think that this reception is somehow going to stop you from posting. You should have seen what Thorn got when he first arrived.
Posted by Carter (Member # 426) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult:
quote: A good rule of thumb is that other members shouldn't feel harrassed
I hate to be snippy, but the suggestion that I have sex with children? Harrassy.
Wow! Deepseated weirdness there. I saw a bedtime story - what did you see?
Posted by Carter (Member # 426) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: Is this a spoof on the Barbelith faqs or do you 'mean it'? If everyone on tmo had to tiptoe around, not upsetting notoriously volatile posters like Ringo, Carter and Black Mask, there wouldn't be much in the way of chewy content left now would there?
It's a direct C+P from the racism/gayism guidelines.
Also - notoriously volatile. Love it. Can we have a club, with badges and a password?
Posted by Carter (Member # 426) on :
quote:Originally posted by Carter: You should have seen what Thorn got when he first arrived.
That said, I didn't. I wasn't here until moths after that. It's just board legend.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
I'm sure that even thorn would agree that he was acting like a penis. TMO was a different place back then though. Had a high opinion of itself.
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
I saw the legend:
quote: peter perves a pick of proper pipsqueeks
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: I'm wondering why this "intellectual" thing is pushing so many buttons here - I'd certainly agree that I find some of the claims made for Barbelith a bit silly and at times embarrassing, but the spitty drooly Eton-and-Oxbridge stuff back in this thread seems a bit... disproportionate. What's the anxiety here?
I suppose it's down to the fact that Barbelith is promoted so heavily on the idea that it's supposed to be an intellectual forum, so it's kind of noticeable when posts contradict that. I think 'anxiety' is the wrong word. I don't think anyone's anxious about it, just maybe bored, mischievious, pointing and laughing kind of thing. I don't think there's genuine upset.
quote:I don't really understand why the existence of somewhere else on the Internet is causing such upset.
I don't think anyone's genuinely upset about the existence of somewhere else on the internet - that seems to be you're own insecure misreading, although so far as I can tell this mainly sprung out of the manner in which a couple of people felt Kovacs got a bum deal on Barbelith and some posters felt an element of solidarity.
I really think your choice of words - upset/ anxiety are too emotive for what was just - you know - a board ruck and was quite fun while it lasted. I don't want to sound like I'm having a dig here but there is maybe a perception (actually, it's my perception), that Barbelith quizzically sits there humourlessly drilling down into lightweight topics until there's nothing left. Like the way this has gone really - cross board rucks are normally blazing, invigorating and most improtantly time consuming, but it sort of ruins it if you come over all hand-on-chin "Guys why are you so upset?" and reasonable and evaporate the energy in a flurry of over analysis.
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: Is this a spoof on the Barbelith faqs or do you 'mean it'?
d00d, it's practically word for word from the Barbelith Wiki. So: The first one.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
I love this pretend pie-eyed geography teacher persona you're putting on for comic relief. I think you'll make a great new TMO-er.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
Can someone somehow delete that ghastly 'Well I never! Did You Ever?' thread title on Life? I'm sure it's the reason we're all hiding out here in the dank, usually abandoned regions of Web.
Posted by Vogon Poetess (Member # 164) on :
Did Peter Whotsit just call me fick for liking Harry Potter?
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dr. Benway: I'm sure that even thorn would agree that he was acting like a penis.
You know - I've never really forgiven you for chateing with Jonesy all over my first Seethru thread - some shit about living in the same town as the actress wot played Miss Marple. Then TMO started and you complained at me for chatting over a thread. I wanted to break your fucking face for that. I haven't forgotten that feeling, nor should you think that just because it was three years ago my desire to cause you physical harm is in any way diminished.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Don't be ridiculous, it's only gay for liking Harry Potter.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
Just because you caught me on the hop at the iron man contest, don't think that breaking my fucking face would be a walk in the park, Davis. Anyway, it was probably Jonesy who fucked your thread up. He never stays on topic.
[ 26.04.2005, 08:08: Message edited by: Dr. Benway ]
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poetess: Did Peter Whotsit just call me fick for liking Harry Potter?
Nope.
Posted by jonesy999 (Member # 5) on :
I don't even know the name of the actress wot played Miss Marple, let alone where she lives. I think you're getting me mixed up with another poster, Thorn. Maybe Dang (he sounds like he might live in the same town as the actress who played Miss Marple) or Infinite Jones, whose user name was similar to mine.
Posted by jonesy999 (Member # 5) on :
Also, shouldn't Norton be all over this thread?
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
I used to live there; it's in essex and it's called Wivenhoe.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Norton?
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
What?
Posted by jonesy999 (Member # 5) on :
Ah, right, Benway. I went to Wivenhoe recently, when I took care of two toddlers (Leon passed up a gold mine when he said "no women, no kids"). I didn't see Miss Marple down by the riverside, though. I didn't even know she lived there. Probably in the country, solving the suspicious death of a fat Colonel with gout.
Norton.
That should do it.
Posted by Vogon Poetess (Member # 164) on :
I had broad bean soup* at the Barbican Theatre cafe last night, Black Mask. Somehow it brought me closer to you.
* six pounds thirty five for soup, a bottle of water and a slice of cake? Ripping me off so Ralph Feinnes et al can buy some new velvet cardies and silk paisley scarves to mince around in?
Posted by jonesy999 (Member # 5) on :
"Thread rot makes me damp."
[ 26.04.2005, 08:33: Message edited by: jonesy999 ]
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Among my people the broad bean is sacred. We feed it only to the most beautiful young women of the royal line, or those chosen for sacrifice. You are honoured. It is just that you should so eat.
Do you now have the wind?
Posted by Uber Trick (Member # 456) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: Can someone somehow delete that ghastly 'Well I never! Did You Ever?' thread title on Life? I'm sure it's the reason we're all hiding out here in the dank, usually abandoned regions of Web.
Done. I know you're only speaking the truth but it still hurts Posted by Nina (Member # 800) on :
quote: I find that very hard to believe, you fausse-naive little fraud
Yeah, yeah and when did I ever accuse you of not using the words black and African-American? I don't think you've got a problem with terminology, I think you've got a problem with race relations. If I didn't mean it I wouldn't say it because frankly I have no problem with calling you an arse Kovacs. That article is about people's preference and that is the problem with what you're talking about, not the origin of the word.
Posted by Carter (Member # 426) on :
Fucking hell.
Has anyone seen Fatal Attraction?
Posted by Nina (Member # 800) on :
... although the origin is a problem too.
Posted by Carter (Member # 426) on :
In fact, scratch that. Has anyone see The Helen Keller Story?
I think she had a problem seeing and hearing things as well.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
I think we must be institutionally racist.
Posted by Nina (Member # 800) on :
I have no respect for any of you, I read the Andrea Dworkin thread and none of you had a problem with her theory, just how fat she was.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Are you fat Nina?
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nina: I have no respect for any of you, I read the Andrea Dworkin thread and none of you had a problem with her theory, just how fat she was.
Okay! That's it, guys! Shut up shop! Time to call it a day. Nina has no respect for us.
Posted by Carter (Member # 426) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nina: I have no respect for any of you, I read the Andrea Dworkin thread and none of you had a problem with her theory, just how fat she was.
If that was BM's "First the Pope..." thread, then what you say is untrue, and either a lie, or a grieviously lazy misinterpretation.
Lots of people were glad she died, one made a comment about how ugly she was, and BM made a gag about her drinking sperm and eating microphones.
No-one apart from you called her fat.
Just you. It's people like you who drove her to suicide, Nina.
Posted by Vogon Poetess (Member # 164) on :
I can't believe Darryn's allowed that username. That's the last time I send him any you're-hos.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Look, unless Nina's a fat black lady, she really isn't in any better position to say anything.
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nina: I have no respect for any of you, I read the Andrea Dworkin thread and none of you had a problem with her theory, just how fat she was.
Ehh. Rubbish - loads of fat people die every day. They don't get a thread gloating about their death. Dworkin got one because she said things like porn is a pre-cursor to rape. Also: when Peter Purves fella is warning against judging an entire board by one or two posters it's dishonest to say 'none of you', when not everyone posted on that thread, and at least one post on the Dworkin thread made exactly the same point you just did. How does that square with your "none of you" comment. WHY MUST YOU TURN OUR BOARD INTO A VEHICLE OF LIES?
Posted by Abby (Member # 582) on :
ooh ooh! Could we all meet up in a field somewhere after work and have a big Moon v.s. Barbeleith fight? Like in Grange Hill, or Biker Grove or whatever it was?
That would be sweet. Stefanos could bring swords and stuff.
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poetess: I can't believe Darryn's allowed that username. That's the last time I send him any you're-hos.
Sorry Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: loads of fat people die every day. They don't get a thread gloating about their death. Dworkin got one because she said things like porn is a pre-cursor to rape.
In fairness, the Dworkster probably had a point. Could every poster who regularly beats off to internet porn say with any degree of certainty that none of the images they'd ever jerked off to had resulted from - or preceded - coercive sex of one degree or another? Linda Lovelace was subjected to abusive, degrading treatment all the while she was a 'star', it's not remotely unreasonable to suggest that this isn't an uncommon experience for the women who appear in those images, those video clips.
Just after Dworkin died, Radio 4 broadcast an extract from a speech she gave at a public meeting - it was almost embarrassing to hear someone proselytising with such unrestrained emotion... and yet somehow touching and sad that no one seems capable of such passion now. I mean: Camille Paglia? Naomi Wolf? Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: In fairness, the Dworkster probably had a point. Could every poster who regularly beats off to internet porn say with any degree of certainty that none of the images they'd ever jerked off to had resulted from - or preceded - coercive sex of one degree or another? Linda Lovelace was subjected to abusive, degrading treatment all the while she was a 'star', it's not remotely unreasonable to suggest that this isn't an uncommon experience for the women who appear in those images, those video clips.
Like you, I can't possibly comment on the experiences of women in who have partaken in porn. However, once again we're moving into the dodgy territory of suggesting that everything from the highest-class production down to the grubbiest videotaped encounter can be captured under the same umbrella, which isn't the case.
NONETHELESS, Dworkin's points didn't appear - to me at least - to be aimed not at the industry, but rather the viewer of porn:
quote:"Pornography is used in rape - to plan it, to execute it, to choreograph it, to engender the excitement to commit the act,"
[ 26.04.2005, 10:03: Message edited by: Thorn Davis ]
Posted by fridgemagnet (Member # 134) on :
Well, that's true, isn't it? Pornography frequently *is* used by rapists.
I find it a bit embarrassing that it was only when she died that I actually read some of Dworkin's stuff and found quite how much she was misrepresented.
[ 26.04.2005, 10:10: Message edited by: fridgemagnet ]
Posted by Carter (Member # 426) on :
Oxygen is also used a lot by rapists.
Posted by fridgemagnet (Member # 134) on :
yersss
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by fridgemagnet: Well, that's true, isn't it? Pornography frequently *is* used by rapists.
Well... so what? Food and water are too. I don't believe pornography creates rapists. I mean rapists probably do use pornography but that doesn't mean there's cause and effect between watching porn and committing rape anymore than there's a cause and effect between watching violent films/ playing violent games and committing acts of violence. I'd be suprised at ben who's formerly argued the absurdity of the idea that gangsta rap creates ganstas suggesting that porn creates rapists.
Posted by Carter (Member # 426) on :
Sorry, I thought we were playing a game. It's your turn - but don't use shoes or duct tape, I'm saving those.
Posted by doc d (Member # 781) on :
is it "porn creates rapists" or "porn creates fantasies that cannot be acted out leading to frustration and self loathing, which may or may not be a motivating force in rape"?
or for instance, max hardcore.
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: Could every poster who regularly beats off to internet porn say with any degree of certainty that none of the images they'd ever jerked off to had resulted from - or preceded - coercive sex of one degree or another? Linda Lovelace was subjected to abusive, degrading treatment all the while she was a 'star', it's not remotely unreasonable to suggest that this isn't an uncommon experience for the women who appear in those images, those video clips.
Yeah - a friend of mine is researching the hardcore industry in the US at the moment; apparently, the legit porn producers are very keen indeed to show that they are complying with e.g making every reasonable effort to ensure that their actresses are over 21, precisely because if your head is over the parapet as a legit producer (that is, you have a corporate registration, a registered office, a delivery network), you are a lot easier to find and punish for infractions than the underground, non-legit producers.
Mind you, there's regulatory ethical and ethical ethical...
[ 26.04.2005, 10:51: Message edited by: The Peter Purves cargo cult ]
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
Well, I wasn't saying that all porn was produced under the same umbrella in terms of working conditions, the professionalism (or otherwise) of the men involved or the possible vulnerability of the female performers - clearly, there's going to be a tremendous variety of experience. I'm taken aback by your concern that we be scrupulously fair to the highest-class productions - particularly when you consider that Deep Throat was pretty mainstream as these things go... for all the good that did Lovelace.
Dworkin's great strength, I think, was as a provacateur (suggesting women shoot rapists etc) and though there may not be a causal link between consumption of pornography and rape, there's no doubt at all that the gigantic industry that comprises the spectrum of filmed and photographed pornography is inextricably linked with the exploitation and abuse of women. Dworkin's porn=rape stance is a provocation that ought to jolt us out of some of our more complacent attitudes relating to porn.
It's easy sometimes to fall into the mental habit of categorising hardcore as not all that different from a more explicit FHM shoot - or to consider it a Eurotrash-style joke. Surely the role of a public intellectual is to shock or disturb the untinking consumer and make him think a little harder or a little more differently about what exactly it is that he's consuming.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: a friend of mine is research corporate and social responsibility in the hardcore industry in the US at the moment
lol - I'm imagining a glossy CSR report for a porn studio. Brightly aspirational bullet-points alongside cheerleader facials, bbw creampies and anal-mad milfs.
Posted by doc d (Member # 781) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: Dworkin's porn=rape stance is a provocation that ought to jolt us out of some of our more complacent attitudes relating to porn.
yes. but. annie sprinkles. champion of porn. had loads of fun. is a sex educator, unfortunately has a phd in sex or something. saw her do her show in nashville.
she went from 70s hetero films to now making 00s lesbo films. but she still believes in porn. she's not so sure of some of the stuff thats out but feels that it has to be out there.
so porn = fun or porn = rape?
Posted by fridgemagnet (Member # 134) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: Well... so what? Food and water are too. I don't believe pornography creates rapists. I mean rapists probably do use pornography but that doesn't mean there's cause and effect between watching porn and committing rape anymore than there's a cause and effect between watching violent films/ playing violent games and committing acts of violence. I'd be suprised at ben who's formerly argued the absurdity of the idea that gangsta rap creates ganstas suggesting that porn creates rapists.
What "yersss" in my above post means is "Pornography hardly occupies the same position in the life of a rapist (with respect to rape) as oxygen, given that it is used as reinforcement for an attitude system, as an encouragement, even in the actual act sometimes." You're not claiming that Max Hardcore videos have the same status to a rapist as a sausage roll, surely?
Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: ...and make him think a little harder or a little more differently about what exactly it is that he's consuming.
I understand that he must "think harder" but surely it is she who should think about "what exactly it is she's consuming".
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Darryn, this thread is waaaay off-topic. Don't just sit there, MODERATE!
Honestly, people, it's getting a bit claustrophobic in here. Why not open a window, or start a new thread?
Posted by Electric Boogaloo (Member # 799) on :
Lots of non-rapists use porn. You use porn.
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: I'm taken aback by your concern that we be scrupulously fair to the highest-class productions - particularly when you consider that Deep Throat was pretty mainstream as these things go... for all the good that did Lovelace.
Oh, sure. Hence my distinction of regulatory ethical and ethical ethical. There are lots of things that, while legal, are still deeply icky, and I suspect that power inequalities built into the making of hardcore porn (and, for that matter, softcore porn) will make it very hard to create "free-range" porn. That's an issue, definitely.
Then, of course, you find yourself up against the subjectivity scale - at one end, you'll find people arguing that anyone who wants to get involved in something as degrading as hardcore porn is by definition not competent to make decisions about whether or not to appear in hardcore porn, and at the other that porn is a business exactly like any other, so the only challenge is to ensure workplace legislation is enforced. I think most people are probably somewhere between those two points.
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
quote:Originally posted by doc d: [QUOTE]Originally posted by ben: annie sprinkles. champion of porn. had loads of fun. is a sex educator, unfortunately has a phd in sex or something. saw her do her show in nashville.
she went from 70s hetero films to now making 00s lesbo films. but she still believes in porn. she's not so sure of some of the stuff thats out but feels that it has to be out there.
so porn = fun or porn = rape?
Maybe both - I've heard good things about Anna Span's recent work, and a lot of lesbian porn is very eager to assert its credentials as using genuine chums/highly respectful direction, and so forth. So, possibly some porn actresses in the 70s had a great time (Annie Sprinkle) and others had a terrible time (Linda Lovelace), and this is probably still the case now.
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
Oopsy - double post.
[ 26.04.2005, 10:52: Message edited by: The Peter Purves cargo cult ]
Posted by Roy (Member # 705) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: Oopsy - double post.
A double entry
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: possibly some porn actresses in the 70s had a great time (Annie Sprinkle) and others had a terrible time (Linda Lovelace), and this is probably still the case now.
I don't think it's possible, I don't even think it's likely. I would say that it's a definite when we are assuming that some porn stars have had a hard time and some have a good time. To say it could be either extremes is throwing probability out of the window.
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
I know some people who have a really shitty time working in call centre jobs, while others really love it. Surely it's the case of any industry that there are both good and bad examples of how people treat their workforce?
This may be more extreme in the porn industry, where there is perhaps more scope for abuse to take place, but it's by no means unique to the industry.
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
My point being that it doesn't really prove anything, since examples can be easily found which support both sides of the argument.
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
Precisely. So, what do you then start doing to work out whether porn is internally or externally abusive to its employees/its consumers/people who are involved neither in the creation nor the consumption of pornography but share a world in which pornography is created and consumed?
Posted by kovacs (Member # 28) on :
You are becoming a clown, Nina. I don't understand how you seem quite articulate and intelligent on Barbelith but have totally spunked your credibility here in less than ten posts -- I really didn't think someone relatively clever from Barbelith would seem an idiot on TMO. Are you actually Nina Clamouricity, formerly Nina Christianity? If so, do we have some kind of brain-drain airlock for people making the transit from your board to ours?
I have taken some care and exercised some patience, even generosity, in replying to you, and all you can say is that I have "a problem with race relations". I don't think anyone else reading my posts here would draw that conclusion. Purves didn't seem to.
Are you sure it's not just cause I spanked you on that Machinist thread, and you thought a safe way of trying to get your own back would be to call me a racist? You know -- it's taken a while for me to realise, because it's such a sad thing for anyone to do -- I think that is what this is about. And that's so fucking low... you disagreed with me on an internet thread about a movie (despite the fact that again I was really very peaceable, even complimentary to you on there) so you pull out that kind of totally irrelevant and unwarranted slur. Using the race card dishonestly just to try and score yourself a point because you said a film sucked and I defended it.
You must be a really nasty piece of work. Fuck off my board.
[ 26.04.2005, 11:14: Message edited by: kovacs ]
Posted by discodamage (Member # 66) on :
noone watched the dark side of porn last night then?
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Did it have conclusive evidence that every porn star is abused and that even smelling a copy of Razzle would make you rape someone?
Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
quote:Originally posted by discodamage: noone watched the Dark Side of porn last night then?
I caught the end, but I missed the bit where Vader and The Emperor indulge in a saucy bit of sodomy.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ringo: I know some people who have a really shitty time working in call centre jobs, while others really love it. Surely it's the case of any industry that there are both good and bad examples of how people treat their workforce?
I've worked in a call centre and, bad as it was, I was never spunked on by more than three co-workers at a time.
We could pretend that hardcore porn is 'an industry just like any other', but imagine for a moment your own reaction to a girlfriend or female relative announcing they were planning on a career in porn - we're talking about a different universe in terms of what the risks are to a person's physical and mental health, her self-esteem and her long-term prospects for a happy, 'normal' life.
Added to which, there's a whole underside of criminality and exploitation to the porn industry that just isn't present in mainstream employment. Pretending this doesn't exist or - at worst - is equivalent to little more than having a bone-idle boss or a useless team is self-deluding, I think.
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: Precisely. So, what do you then start doing to work out whether porn is internally or externally abusive to its employees/its consumers/people who are involved neither in the creation nor the consumption of pornography but share a world in which pornography is created and consumed?
Isn't that really a matter of opinion though? Certainly in the wider sense, what you're talking about is whether or not it's a damaging influence on society, whether that means it just promotes some negative attitudes or can be a trigger factor for potential sexual abusers.
The problem really, is in seperating fact from opinion. For instance, it may be true that a large percentage of convicted rapists are also regular users of pornography, but I'm certainly not able to say with any real authority as to whether or not these same people would have committed these acts had they never been exposed to that kind of adult material. Considering the number of people who use porno and don't abuse women, my gut instinct tells me that there's no real relation between the two. I can't claim that to be a fact though.
Posted by Physic (Member # 195) on :
quote:Originally posted by discodamage: noone watched the dark side of porn last night then?
DD was that the one about the HIV scare and such like, with the old bloke in the crap shades and the two girls talking matter of factly about anal fisting? I vaguely recall it seemed rather depressing and discomforting to watch (I was rather drunk when I got in last night and hence my recollections are vague at best), although I guess any program which studies the seamier side of the industry is inevitably going to be since it is by nature a fairly depressing industry when viewed from that perpective for reasons which have already been expressed, I mean when you're cracking one off over some porn who really wants to think about the fact that the person being gang-banged or whatever is actually someones sister, or mum, and has feelings and emotions, doesn't seem as (at all?) erotic when you consider the human aspect...
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: I've worked in a call centre and, bad as it was, I was never spunked on by more than three co-workers at a time.
True, but to be fair I doubt any porn star has had to talk someone through the finer points of a payment system over the phone.
Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
Today's Longest Sentence of the Day award goes to Physic for this little effort of 116 words:
quote: I vaguely recall it seemed rather depressing and discomforting to watch (I was rather drunk when I got in last night and hence my recollections are vague at best), although I guess any program which studies the seamier side of the industry is inevitably going to be since it is by nature a fairly depressing industry when viewed from that perpective for reasons which have already been expressed, I mean when you're cracking one off over some porn who really wants to think about the fact that the person being gang-banged or whatever is actually someones sister, or mum, and has feelings and emotions, doesn't seem as (at all?) erotic when you consider the human aspect...
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
quote:Originally posted by kovacs: I have taken some care and exercised some patience, even generosity, in replying to you
Well... you said
quote: I find that very hard to believe, you fausse-naive little fraud.
***
your stupid "helpful" link
***
You have shown yourself to be ignorant but you should try not to LIE too.
You feel provoked and justified, so does Nina, on we go. Flamewar ensues.
[ 26.04.2005, 11:40: Message edited by: The Peter Purves cargo cult ]
Posted by discodamage (Member # 66) on :
quote:Originally posted by New Way Of Decay: Did it have conclusive evidence that every porn star is abused and that even smelling a copy of Razzle would make you rape someone?
no. i didnt see all of the first one but it was about the hiv related porn shutdown and featured max hardcore- who might not make men want to rape women but does make me want to punch gonzo porn producers. he is scum. the second one was porn: the musical which featured six or seven porn stars singing about their experiences. firstly- i didnt need to hear them singing. porn stars singing is like chickens windsurfing- its unlikely theyll be able to and it shouldnt be encouraged. one woman had come to really dislike being in porn, and was shown literally drenched in piss after a watersports shoot which seemed to leave her very demoralised. otherwise all the actresses seemed very jolly, bright-eyed and well-suited to their work, and i wouldnt like to say there was any oppression going on there at all. but they were also british and noticeably less surgerised than their american counterparts, none of whom looked anywhere near as healthy or even recognisably human.
Posted by Roy (Member # 705) on :
Yeah, Purves, but war? What is it good for?
Posted by His Life And Crimes (Member # 796) on :
I suppose it's down to the fact that Barbelith is promoted so heavily on the idea that it's supposed to be an intellectual forum, so it's kind of noticeable when posts contradict that.
Except that it's not just this that some people object to, is it? Some people seem to be annoyed that Barbelith doesn't meet the intellectual standards it allegedly claims to, but some people have been complaining about the kind (what you might call) intellectual discussion that allegedly goes on there: for example, use of the term "ze" (which goes against simple common sense), certain other ways of thinking/talking about language, gender, race, etc. I don't think I'm imagining it when I perceive some of the disquiet around Barbelith to be based on the idea that the place is a hotbed of 'PC' weirdo liberal academics - "when did it all get so tofu around here?", as someone put it.
Anyway, this thread is well on the way to becoming an interesting discussion in spite of that and in spite of Kovacs' inability to see that calling someone a "fausse-naive little fraud" and then claiming to be the victimised party is not going to do him any favours. A quick note on Dworkin and porn: it's possible for two things to be true at once, namely a) that one can be pro-porn (if not necessarily pro-mainstream-porn-as-it-currently-exists) and thus in opposition to Dworkin's theories without being reactionary/anti-feminist; b) that Dworkin has often been misrepresented by reactionary/anti-feminist people. Susie Bright's obituary of Dworkin may be relevant here.
[ 26.04.2005, 11:45: Message edited by: His Life And Crimes ]
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by discodamage: one woman had come to really dislike being in porn, and was shown literally drenched in piss after a watersports shoot which seemed to leave her very demoralised.
I think I saw that woman interviewed before. She was quite upbeat and happy at the start of the programme, with the usual "It's my decision to make porno movies. It's nothing to be ashamed of. I find it quite empowering." kind of line. She looked considerably less enthusiastic after a couple of hours of being repeatedly videoed gulping down hot piss with a vibrator stuck up her arse.
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: We could pretend that hardcore porn is 'an industry just like any other', but imagine for a moment your own reaction to a girlfriend or female relative announcing they were planning on a career in porn - we're talking about a different universe in terms of what the risks are to a person's physical and mental health, her self-esteem and her long-term prospects for a happy, 'normal' life.
Next question - is that an inevitable consequence of the sex industry, or is it a consequence of how people who work in the sex industry are treated, not just by people in the industry but by people outside the industry? That is, if somebody is working in good conditions, is treated with respect and is paid well for their time, with a premium reflecting the risks of the job, then what is actually damaging their self-esteem? Is it their job or the way people outside the industry treat them because of what they do? Arguably, getting mainstream porn as mainstream as possible - regulatory compliance, taxes, working standards, unionised workforce, pension funds and so on - is the best way to make a break between that and the nasty, shady and more obviously and immediately damaging and dangerous businesses.
Might be worth thinking about why our example is a girlfriend or female relative as well - how about men in porn? Are they also exploited? Are we having our opinions coloured by who we feel instinctively should and shouldn't be having multiple sexual partners?
Posted by discodamage (Member # 66) on :
well, quite, bm. also, there was some very enlightening information about what repeated anal/ multiple anal scenes will do to a lady's bottom. vis a vis fecal leakage being a very real problem after 200 scenes or so. thats another thing i bet mainstream porn viewers dont like to think about too much- the fact that yer more famous porn actresses cant fart without following through a little bit and therefore have to wear depends nappies at all times. thats sexy, isnt it! look at the big boner on you all when you think about that. unless youre german, in which case get along with you, hans.
[ 26.04.2005, 11:53: Message edited by: discodamage ]
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: Next question
You're asking a lot of questions, but I'd like to hear some of your answers.
[ 26.04.2005, 11:55: Message edited by: Ringo ]
Posted by sabian (Member # 6) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: ...how about men in porn? Are they also exploited?
Hell ya they are exploited... The bitches get like $1k a film and the poor bastard gets like $250!
EQUAL PAY FOR EQUAL WORK!
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
What is it with the whole anal thing?
Posted by discodamage (Member # 66) on :
is being one of two cocks up a womans ass as much work as having two cocks up your ass though? again, its a hypothetical question. but its something to think about.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Pussy's great. Pussy rules. Why would anyone look any further than pussy?
Posted by Roy (Member # 705) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: Pussy's great. Pussy rules. Why would anyone look any further than pussy?
To make it hurt
Ahem. So they say.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
It's madness.
Posted by discodamage (Member # 66) on :
discomfort = easily confused with visceral, animalistic sexual response. thats what the drenched-in-pee lady said.
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
re: Male porn stars - how about gay porn? Some of the same physiological dangers, presumably - how does it do in the self-esteem or drug addiction stakes?
[ 26.04.2005, 12:16: Message edited by: The Peter Purves cargo cult ]
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Why would anyone want two cocks up their arse? Why would anyone want to put their cock up someone's arse alongside another cock? And why the fuck would anyone want to watch that?
Posted by doc d (Member # 781) on :
so basically, there is no good porn. because the bad stuff far outweighs the good stuff?
that's basically the ultimate reduction.
jenna jameson's autobiography basically says that anyone starting in porn or even thinking of starting in porn is an idiot.
was that "dark side of porn" the one with the woman from the UK who meets with max hardcore?
Posted by discodamage (Member # 66) on :
youre asking a lot of questions, but id like to hear your answers, masky.
Posted by sabian (Member # 6) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: Why would anyone want two cocks up their arse? Why would anyone want to put their cock up someone's arse alongside another cock? And why the fuck would anyone want to watch that?
why do people get off on tubgirl or goatse.cx?
There are some fucking weirdos out there, simple as.
Posted by discodamage (Member # 66) on :
quote:Originally posted by doc d:
jenna jameson's autobiography basically says that anyone starting in porn or even thinking of starting in porn is an idiot.
considering jenna jameson now has more money than god i think that is extrmely disingenuous.
Posted by squeegy (Member # 136) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: What is it with the whole anal thing?
Actually I have a couple of friends who carry on about anal all the time. I notice they are often also very homophobic.
So love of anal = poof.
Squeegy science.
spazzy edit
[ 26.04.2005, 12:04: Message edited by: squeegy ]
Posted by Roy (Member # 705) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: Why would anyone want two cocks up their arse? Why would anyone want to put their cock up someone's arse alongside another cock? And why the fuck would anyone want to watch that?
I wonder that too. The first part of your question, that is. The cocks must touch and must rub together so each penis is stimulating the other until...splashdown.
And you say we don't do inteleckshul.
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
It's traitorous, obviously, but I'm actually really enjoying the way a number of different themes are bouncing up and down this thread - race, porn, Dworkin, whether or not x is a cock.
The tofu thing's interesting - the disquiet about Barbelith seems to be, based on this thread:
It was rude to Kovacs (and/or Black Mask)
It is arrogant, as expressed in its advert for scientists
It is stuffy and over-moderated, as shown by its moderation system and its FAQs
It is hypocritical in its moderation, insofar as its moderators do not apply the code of etiquette strictly
There might be a fair bit of truth in all of that. There's sort of an undercurrent of "look at the PC lefties", though, most obviously in the "tofu" comment. Again, Barbelith and TMO are aiming at very different things there. One of the things that has come out for me in this thread is that on Barbelith there'd be, I think, a lot more pushback on the running series of gags involving "jewing" as a synonym for "cheating", negro slaves, Nina's fatness or otherwise, and so on. That's probably about where you set the bar - where freedom for people to say what they want in order to be entertaining and funny comes up against other people not wandering into threads and finding terminologies that are not funny at all to them. Fortunately, the variety of the Internet allows for lots of different approaches to this and for people to find the space that fits them the best.
[ 26.04.2005, 12:14: Message edited by: The Peter Purves cargo cult ]
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
I'm just glad all this filth hasn't infected the internet, yet.
Posted by doc d (Member # 781) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: Why would anyone want two cocks up their arse? Why would anyone want to put their cock up someone's arse alongside another cock? And why the fuck would anyone want to watch that?
you know i have no idea. dp, dv, dvda? why? why not just touch each others cocks and get it over with?
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: Arguably, getting mainstream porn as mainstream as possible - regulatory compliance, taxes, working standards, unionised workforce, pension funds and so on - is the best way to make a break between that and the nasty, shady and more obviously and immediately damaging and dangerous businesses.
Unionised workforce? Pensions? Jesus - these are the things being stripped out of most mainstream industries at present; you hardly expect porn to buck that trend, do you? If anything, pressures to drive down standard and conditions have increased in the past few years with the opening up of Russia, Eastern Europe and the Balkans for red-in-tooth-and-claw business.
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: Might be worth thinking about why our example is a girlfriend or female relative as well - how about men in porn? Are they also exploited? Are we having our opinions coloured by who we feel instinctively should and shouldn't be having multiple sexual partners?
Mmmm. Maybe I'm giving in to crude, instinctive reactions but I just get the sense that Peter North and the like don't really need all that much protection. Traditionally, a discussion about sexual exploitation on tmo hasn't really got going until we get the usual male whimpers of neglect - but the position of men and women in relation to the production of porn isn't really comparable*. It's a lot harder to imagine a male performer crying himself to sleep, bleeding from every orifice with a needle hanging out of his arm, than his female co-star in the same situation.
* = As The Damager says: "is being one of two cocks up a womans ass as much work as having two cocks up your ass though?"
[ 26.04.2005, 12:10: Message edited by: ben ]
Posted by sabian (Member # 6) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: blah blah blah
Oh for fuck sake, quit rotting the topic! We're talking about tits and ass now!
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: It's traitorous, obviosuly,
Look , pal, I know you're trying to drag this back on topic but we're talking about porn, now. And it's probably your fault. Just drop it. I've heard enough about Barbelith.
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: Well, there's..
Yeah, I know the obvious facts. That's clear enough. Come on are you a Geography teacher or something? Tell us what you really feel about the subject.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by doc d: why not just touch each others cocks and get it over with?
lol
Exactemundo.
Posted by sabian (Member # 6) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: It's a lot harder to imagine a male performer crying himself to sleep, bleeding from every orifice with a needle hanging out of his arm, than his female co-star in the same situation.
I don't know man, didn't you see that Ana Belle Chong thing? Her 'friend' "Allen" looked to be just THAT type!
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by squeegy: I have a couple of friends who carry on about anal all the time.
Carry on how? Are they fer it? Or agin it?
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
quote:Originally posted by His Life And Crimes: intellectual discussion that allegedly goes on there: for example, use of the term "ze" (which goes against simple common sense), certain other ways of thinking/talking about language, gender, race, etc.
And I would consider this to be a waste of fresh air frankly. I don't see the need to intellectualise masculine and feminine ownership, because I don't discriminate between the two in my daily life. I've never had the need. But if you enjoy the discussion, that's great. Fair play.
quote:Anyway, this thread is well on the way to becoming an interesting discussion in spite of that and in spite of Kovacs' inability to see that calling someone a "fausse-naive little fraud" and then claiming to be the victimised party is not going to do him any favours.
Then, see! You fucking ruin it for yourself by trying to suggest the thread almost meets your expectations.
Better still, Purves got the hump and self confessed he didn't like any accusation at being branded a wrongcock. A standard reaction from people who seem to be coddled from any kind of missile fire, no matter how ludicrously groundless it might be.
[ 26.04.2005, 12:10: Message edited by: New Way Of Decay ]
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by discodamage: youre asking a lot of questions, but id like to hear your answers, masky.
deedee, if I had the answers you'd be the first to know. Frankly, I'm speechless.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
Better have a good 6000th, Mask.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Balls! I spunked out all my quality loathing and contempt yesterday.
Posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult (Member # 802) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult: It's traitorous, obviously, but I'm actually really enjoying the way a number of different themes are bouncing up and down this thread - race, porn, Dworkin, whether or not x is a cock.
The tofu thing's interesting - the disquiet about Barbelith seems to be, based on this thread:
It was rude to Kovacs (and/or Black Mask)
It is arrogant, as expressed in its advert for scientists
It is stuffy and over-moderated, as shown by its moderation system and its FAQs
It is hypocritical in its moderation, insofar as its moderators do not apply the code of etiquette strictly
There might be a fair bit of truth in all of that. There's sort of an undercurrent of "look at the PC lefties", though, most obviously in the "tofu" comment. Again, Barbelith and TMO are aiming at very different things there. One of the things that has come out for me in this thread is that on Barbelith there'd be, I think, a lot more pushback on the running series of gags involving "jewing" as a synonym for "cheating", negro slaves, Nina's fatness or otherwise, and so on. That's probably about where you set the bar - where freedom for people to say what they want in order to be entertaining and funny comes up against other people not wandering into threads and finding terminologies that are not funny at all to them. Fortunately, the variety of the Internet allows for lots of different approaches to this and for people to find the space that fits them the best.
Posted by discodamage (Member # 66) on :
what about if i say something about how your disdain for doublebumsex means that you are being prejudiced against haemorroids. i dont know! im thinking of a decent feedline for you. i really want this to work.
[ 26.04.2005, 12:15: Message edited by: discodamage ]
Posted by squeegy (Member # 136) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask:
quote:Originally posted by squeegy: I have a couple of friends who carry on about anal all the time.
Carry on how? Are they fer it? Or agin it?
For
Posted by doc d (Member # 781) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Peter Purves cargo cult:
There might be a fair bit of truth in all of that. There's sort of an undercurrent of "look at the PC lefties", though, most obviously in the "tofu" comment. [/QB]
most of us on here already know what side of the political spectrum we stand on, we only have one overt racist. maybe you should have hung around a bit more to see how threads develop before bringing in your style from barbeleith?
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
Jebus... You nip off for an hour or two to watch a bad movie and it all goes wonky...
This thread is like way off topic now and too long to be caught up on..
Start a new thread - Do one in life or something..
I have to go look at the baby, I whacked his head into a door frame by accident and he's all crying and bruises..
Thread closed but please, please start a new one elsewhere...
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