GOOD: Eric Bana. Peter O'Toole. Sean Bean. Fights like the ones in LOTR could have been like if it wasn't a PG.
BAD: Brad Pitt. Really really bad. Music from Mr Titanic ie banshee wailing all the time. Stupid things happening wrong from the book.
But anyway, I meant to ask this question ages ago.
The bird playing Helen is pretty pikey looking and not worth starting a war over. Might be the eye make-up.
Who should be cast to play the most beautiful woman inna world?
I thought Shannyn Sossaman, as she is Mediterranean looking and purty, or Natalie Portman.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
The face that munched a thousand chips.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Mmmmmuhhhh..!
[ 17.05.2004, 05:51: Message edited by: Black Mask ]
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
How about Amy Winehouse?
Or Denzil Washington.
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: The face that munched a thousand chips.
I've never understood if "The face that launched a thousand ships" is meant to be a compliment. I mean, if I was Helen I'd be, like, "What do you mean? Are you saying that I've got a face like a smashed champagne bottle? Or I've got, like, thousands of sailor boyfriends all over the place? Or that my bum looks like the back of an aircraft carrier? What do you mean?"
But maybe it was because she could rise above such things that she was such a great, er, whatever she was.
Posted by H1ppychick (Member # 529) on :
Surprisingly no comment on the Bloomness of Orlando by Veep. Maybe cos he was shit.
Other than that, I agree with her.
The British cast were classes above the American in-fill, albeit in a rather poor vehicle, with the exception of Mr Bana who was really rather good and made me want to go rent Hulk. Brad was not good, not good at all - completely one-dimensional, his motivations were obscure and ill-founded. I think this has made me change my previous opinion of "pretty boy but decent actor", based on Fight Club and Twelve Monkeys, to "pretty boy and can't act, only effective in FC and TM because cast against type". What a shame.
Posted by Vogon Poetess (Member # 164) on :
quote:Originally posted by H1ppychick: Surprisingly no comment on the Bloomness of Orlando by Veep. Maybe cos he was shit.
I thought he was alright, the whole point of the character of Paris is that he is a bit shit. Poor Mr Bloom does also seem to get lumbered with a lot of bum lines in films.
Also: The Hulk is rubbish, even with my new friend Mr Bana.
Posted by miffysocks (Member # 675) on :
Havn't seen yet, maybe i wont now. Just wanted to get in how the hulk sucks donkey pee pee
Posted by scrawny (Member # 113) on :
Most beautiful woman in the world: Angelina Jolie, Monica Bellucci. The Portman bitch can kiss my arse.
Posted by Sidney (Member # 399) on :
Hippy and Veep - to check out Mr Bana and how much he rules, I would suggest renting Chopper rather than The Hulk.
Posted by Boy Racer (Member # 498) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poetess: The Hulk is rubbish
quote:Originally posted by miffysocks: the hulk sucks donkey pee pee
You're making me angry...
Posted by Abby (Member # 582) on :
I saw him talking about stuff on Jonathon Woss, and he was ok (seemed slightly embarrassed when talked turned to The Hulk), but nowhere near as comedy as the chap who played Shaggy in Scooby Doo who was also a guest that night, and was utterly utterly wrecked! He was trying to plug his new play and came up with "its quite short, so you will have time to go to the pub afterwards", and to Jonathon "I've seen your wife! She's foxy - yeah!". Genius.
Posted by Vogon Poetess (Member # 164) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sidney: Hippy and Veep - to check out Mr Bana and how much he rules, I would suggest renting Chopper rather than The Hulk.
Nah, definitely best in Black Hawk Down, where he once again radiates hardness and clears up the mess that Orlando Bloom's character fucked up.
Abby, was it Freddie Prinze Jr? Everything about him is hateful, including his stupid name.
Posted by Uber Trick (Member # 456) on :
x
[ 17.05.2004, 09:00: Message edited by: Uber Trick ]
Posted by Raz (Member # 449) on :
quote:Originally posted by scrawny: Most beautiful woman in the world: Angelina Jolie, Monica Bellucci. The Portman bitch can kiss my arse.
Portman has fucked up royally. Should have played more prostitutes.
Also: Keira Knightley. Fuck off. Seriously. No one cares. Go home.
Abby, are you drunk again?
Re: Orlando Bloom. He = the worst actor in the last 50 years. No, 100 years. If I wanted to look at average-looking men from Kent I would hang around with Dr Benway. Oh wait. Wait.
There is actually a better version of Orlando Bloom available that is called Christian Bale, but he seemes to have fallen off of the cinema recently.
Re: Brad Pitt. He is excellent in anything. I am not going to see this film. I bet he is great in this film. I am not going to see this film.
Also give him a break. His wife looks like a fucking man, poor lad.
Posted by Astromariner (Member # 446) on :
Angelina Jolie has a funny latex-look face now. I used to think she was well fit when she did that crap film with that dude off Trainspotting, but now I think she ming.
Monica Belluci: yes please! She is very beautiful. Also Liv Tyler but I think she's got the blockbuster thing down. What's that woman with the stupid name - Tweet? Amanda Tweet?
Posted by Sidney (Member # 399) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poetess: [QUOTE]Nah, definitely best in Black Hawk Down
Yes, he was very good in that fillum but I still think that his performance was much stronger in Chopper as he displays his range, luvvie. Then again, I know nowt about fillums. I just thought that, in Chopper, he was a scary, funny, threatening, touching, poignant and menacing anti-hero, all in one role.
Posted by Boy Racer (Member # 498) on :
Oh Please. All Bana did in Black Cock Up, an utterly pointless film all about Didley Squat showing he could DO WAR, was frown a bit and get to say he wasn't sure the Marines should be there, whooptie fucking do.
His work in Chopper shits on it, as does his work in the tragically misunderstood HULK.
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
quote:Originally posted by Astromariner: Angelina Jolie has a funny latex-look face now. I used to think she was well fit when she did that crap film with that dude off Trainspotting, but now I think she ming.
You idiot. Hackers is a gr9 film. It made people like me
respek
Posted by Abby (Member # 582) on :
Hello! No I am not drunk again, but I have taken a heady mix of over the counter cold remedies so I should be excused.
I dont think it was Freddy Prinz Jnr - was he not the 'fit' one who was going out with the 'fit' girl (Buffy)? This guy was Shaggy and I dont know his name, but anyone else who was lucky enough to spend their Friday night in watching celebrity chat shows will appreciate that he was Properly Drunk. Which was funny.
I may have had a point, but I've lost it.
Posted by Abby (Member # 582) on :
I don't fancy watching 'Troy' at all though.
Posted by H1ppychick (Member # 529) on :
Shaggy = Matthew Lillard, who surprisingly was also in Hackers whereof Astro and Ringo spake and which is also a guilty pleasure of mine, due to JLM fitness. Six degrees of Kevin Bacon.
I think I will rent Mr Banananna for my tea tonight.
[ 17.05.2004, 09:42: Message edited by: H1ppychick ]
Posted by Boy Racer (Member # 498) on :
Shaggy was played by twenty-something-Hollywood rent-a-twat Matthew Lillard. Also to be found displaying his all encompassing wacky twatishness in Scream and, strangely enough, Hackers, amongst others.
Posted by Boy Racer (Member # 498) on :
Damn your eyes Ms Chick. Damn your eyes.
Posted by H1ppychick (Member # 529) on :
Too slow, Roy Tracer, too slow! Posted by Boy Racer (Member # 498) on :
So it would seem, Chippy Hick, so it would seem!
Posted by Bamba (Member # 330) on :
Matthew Lillard is a massive cock: FACT! One of his films in particular made me want to spoon out his eyes and cram them up his arse although I can't remember which film exactly. I suspect though that randomly sticking a pin in his filmography and watching whatever was chosen would recreate the desire to visit painful death upon him.
Posted by ally (Member # 600) on :
I've not seen Troy, so can't comment on the film, but on the basis of trailers and stills I want to know what Orlando Bloom does to piss stylists off. so much. They never miss an opportunity to make him look like a twat. Pourquoi?
Posted by Travelling Canadian (Member # 491) on :
quote: What's that woman with the stupid name - Tweet? Amanda Tweet?
Do you mean Amanda Peet?
Posted by discodamage (Member # 66) on :
amanda peet looks like the israeli transvestite who won eurovision in 1999.
Posted by Boy Racer (Member # 498) on :
That's a very bad photo, she's actually a: pretty damn fit and b: a pretty good actress, with a gift for comedy.
Posted by Astromariner (Member # 446) on :
And she's got wonderfully pert, perfectly formed bosoms, which she displayed in The Whole Nine Yards. If I could swap my bosoms with anyone else's, I'd swap them with Amanda Peet's. Then I'd laugh as she fell over.
Posted by Boy Racer (Member # 498) on :
quote:Originally posted by Astromariner: which she displayed in The Whole Nine Yards
Yes, they are fine indeed, and she was very good in non breast related acting based ways also. Also pretty funny in Evil Woman, although no wonderfully pert breast displays in that, well no nipples anyway, more's the pity.
Posted by Bamba (Member # 330) on :
quote:Originally posted by Astromariner: Then I'd laugh as she fell over.
Posted by Astromariner (Member # 446) on :
Never mind.
Posted by jnhoj (Member # 286) on :
As I sat watching Troy I thought , haven't they been showing this on ITV for the last ten years on Sunday afternoons?
Yawnathon, and I don't know whether Brad Pitts "special move" was laughable or great. He kinf of scampers up to a bloke then jumps round him and sticks a sword in his shoulder blades. I think its the runup thats comical.
Troy, Brad Pitt : getting to grips with emotion Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
Has anyone been watching I Am Not An Animal on BBC2, with voices of Steve Coogan, Julia Davis, Simon Pegg et others. Didn't catch first one but happened to see bit of last night's second episode and ended up glued to sofa for duration. Fucking excellent. How do people keep coming up with original in this world of dull?
This has nothing to do with Troy, but it's time we flew the flag for the victory of good old Blighty grintacity over drivelling Hollywood spasmohistorinonce.
Posted by Vogon Poetess (Member # 164) on :
quote:Originally posted by dang65: Hollywood spasmohistorinonce.
Mind you, I'd go to see a film called that.
I saw the animal thing, but the mouse with the thong and sports bras made me afeard.
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by dang65: Has anyone been watching I Am Not An Animal on BBC2, with voices of Steve Coogan, Julia Davis, Simon Pegg et others. Didn't catch first one but happened to see bit of last night's second episode and ended up glued to sofa for duration. Fucking excellent. How do people keep coming up with original in this world of dull?
This has nothing to do with Troy, but it's time we flew the flag for the victory of good old Blighty grintacity over drivelling Hollywood spasmohistorinonce.
If you paid some fucking attention, you might have noticed I started a thread on this last week, you fucking blind old man. Fuck's sake. Mind you, the thread was called I am not an animal, maybe that was a bit obscure for you; I don't know.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
In other news: has anyone checked out that video of the dude getting his head carved off? Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: If you paid some fucking attention, you might have noticed I started a thread on this last week, you fucking blind old man.
I'll just pop over there and have a look. Nurse? Nurse! Can you fetch my slippers, there's a love? I've been invited for a pot of tea with that nice Mr Davis. [sotto voce]I think he might be after my savings though, I'm going to have to be careful with that young fellow.[/sotto voce]
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
quote:Originally posted by dang65: I've never understood if "The face that launched a thousand ships" is meant to be a compliment.
In Marlowe's Doctor Faustus it is, but in the classical source for the line (a dialogue by Lucian in which the Cynic, Mennipus goes to Hades) the emphasis is rather different.
quote:
MENIPPUS: Where are the handsome men and the beautiful women, Hermes? Show me the sights, since I am a stranger here.
HERMES: I don't have the time, Menippus. But look over there to the right; there are Hyacinthus, Narcissus, Nireus, Achilles, Tyro, Helen, Leda, and in brief, all the beauties of old.
MENIPPUS: I see only bones and skulls stripped of flesh, many of them alike.
HERMES: These bones that you seem to despise are what all the poets marvel at.
MENIPPUS: But still show me Helen; for I should not recognize her.
HERMES: This is the skull of Helen.
MENIPPUS: Was it for this then that the thousand ships were launched from all of Greece, and so many Greeks and non-Greeks fell and so many cities were destroyed?
HERMES: But Menippus, you did not see the woman when she was alive; you too would have said it worthwhile "to suffer sorrows so much time for such a woman." [Iliad 3. 157.] For if one looks at flowers when they are dry and have lost their hues, obviously they will seem ugly; but when they are in bloom and have their color they are most beautiful.
MENIPPUS: And so I wonder at this: whether or not the Achaeans realized that they were toiling for a thing so short-lived and so easily destroyed.
HERMES: I do not have the time to philosophize with you. So pick out a spot wherever you wish and be comfortable there; now I shall go to fetch the other shades.
While there were some fairly diverting moments and droll parallels with current geo-pol mayhem (an appreciative laugh for Sean Bean's Blair/Odysseus line about sometimes having to follow in order to lead; the dodgy intel provided by the Trojan high priests) the film was really just the usual Hollywood pile of shit.
Early attempts to portray Achilles as fetchingly nasty were completely compromised by the ludicrous relationship with the high priestess/concubine - particularly, his stupid final reel dash "to save her". Speaking of which, I'm not sure I've seen a recent blockbuster in which women have been portrayed so shallowly or offensively (maybe The Two Towers?) - like the great moment when Agammemnon reveals that he hasn't actually raped her (audience meant to react: 'phew! She's not damaged goods, then. Nice one.') Aside from that, any half-decent female roles (Hecuba, Cassandra etc) have been excised in favour of yet another tastefully frank pan across Brad's rippling loins, for fuck's sake.
Also: can film-makers please now leave off with the undercranked "jerky" explicitly unexplicit fight scenes? It was startling when Saving Private Ryan came out but was already starting to show its age in Gladiator - now it's just another stale ingredient in what's already a pretty derivative stew.
There were good bits, though!
Amid the bizarrely truncated or undercooked scenes where people talked utter wank (and an unwise "this world or the next" line by Paris forcibly reminded everyone that Gladiator did cod-classic claptrap far more fluently and convincingly than this rubbish) there were a handful of moments that justified the time and money spent.
The fight between Hector and Achilles was tense and painful - and so refreshing to have lead characters actually die rather than hop on and off the endless merry-go-round of "ohmigod he's DEAD! But - but hang on a moment!! He's actually ALIVE!!!" that made LOTR such an irritating grind. And though some of the battle vistas has a cartoonish Scorpion King-type feel to them, there was at least the breathtaking moonlit advance on Troy, where the Greeks chased their shadows up incline and down ridge, then through the gates of the city for some 12A-rated pillage (yet another bum note, though: why have Hector talk about Greeks hurling babies from the walls and torching the womenfolk then stint on the baby-hurling woman-torching action? This film was jam-packed with such mouth-writing-cheques-its-fists-couldn't-cash instances.)
All in all, I give Troy six out of a possible ten. Actually, dock that to five for the failure to mention "you long-haired Achaeans" at any point during the proceedings. Posted by Boy Racer (Member # 498) on :
In answer to VP's original question of who should play Helen, I was thinking Alicia Witt if you needed her to act, or maybe Laetitia Casta or Estella Warren if we're talking looks alone.
I think the undoubtedly phenomenal looking Ms Jolie would unbalance the film, I think she's too powerful a presence, or maybe that would have been an interesting way to go?
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poetess: Who should be cast to play the most beautiful woman inna world?
I don't think 'most beautiful woman in world' status was at all mandatory for a convincing/well-cast Helen of Troy. I think the choices made above illustrate just how quixotic an enterprise it is to award such a title - they're either irredeemably vanilla or way too particular for most tastes.
Had I been casting and directing I would have gone for a deliberately controversial choice that was more a reflection of the mores of the ancient world than our own mania for aerobicised bodies, symmetrical faces and CK ad blank stares.
Posted by Boy Racer (Member # 498) on :
I like that idea Ben, but why not go the whole hog then and have Helen played buy a 14 year old boy.
Posted by mart (Member # 32) on :
Any suggestions?
Posted by Vogon Poetess (Member # 164) on :
If I were 14, and young and innocent and unjaded, I would think Daniel Radcliffe was fit.
At my age he can be classified as "a nice fresh-faced young lad."
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
You are wrang, Boy Racer. As any fule kno "gay versions" of things tend to be a lot more gruelling and didactic than one might at first hope - though I definitely think existing gayness should have been retained in Troy. Particularly welcome would have been a scene in which Brad Pitt had an encounter with Patroclus in the latrines before necking a load of pills and dancing for eight hours - all the while sending bitchy texts to his ex and comparing his abs with those of the redhead in the pink crop top and flashing devil horns.
Posted by Boy Racer (Member # 498) on :
I was kinda extrapolating on your comments about "the mores" of the time Ben, with reference to the fact that homosexuality was pretty much universally practiced in the states of Ancient Greece, eventually being made compulsory in Sparta.
I was also kinda joking.
Posted by mart (Member # 32) on :
I think Disco should play Helen of Broy.
Posted by mart (Member # 32) on :
I also think I should shoot myself in the head, with a gun.
Posted by Raz (Member # 449) on :
This
quote:Originally posted by ben: [QUOTE]
MENIPPUS: But still show me Helen; for I should not recognize her.
HERMES: This is the skull of Helen.
MENIPPUS: Was it for this then that the thousand ships were launched from all of Greece, and so many Greeks and non-Greeks fell and so many cities were destroyed?
HERMES: But Menippus, you did not see the woman when she was alive; you too would have said it worthwhile "to suffer sorrows so much time for such a woman." [Iliad 3. 157.] For if one looks at flowers when they are dry and have lost their hues, obviously they will seem ugly; but when they are in bloom and have their color they are most beautiful.
basically =
quote:MENIPPUS: Show me the skull of Helen, because they said she was beautiful.
HERMES: This is it: here. In my hand.
MENIPPUS: That's Helen? I...I don't understand. She = ming. And they had loads of wars over her? What the fuck were they thinking?
HERMES: No no. See, this is her skull. When she was alive she would have had skin and lips and eyes and ting. That would have made her less ming.
MENIPPUS: Oh! Ohhhh. OK. I'm with you now.
And they call this a 'classic'?
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raz: And they call this a 'classic'?
Talking of which, did anyone see Tracy Emin on the Frost show at the weekend? She went off on one about the British Public all having a good laugh at her shite art getting burned in that warehouse fire. Knowing it's really wound her up that no one gives a fuck about her stupid tent is an excellent bonus.
She also tried to claim that it's only the stupid British Public that don't get it and that she's universally loved in Australia, America and Old Europe. Which seemed somewhat unlikely. She may have been thinking of Idi Amin, perhaps.
Posted by Vogon Poetess (Member # 164) on :
Razzle, ben's point was that it is very cool and clever to quote classickle stuff.
Poor thicko raz!
You can tell Sharon Eminem that I don't much care about Art that I could probably do myself, if I could be arsed.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boy Racer: I was kinda extrapolating on your comments about "the mores" of the time Ben, with reference to the fact that homosexuality was pretty much universally practiced in the states of Ancient Greece, eventually being made compulsory in Sparta.
Universally? This being the case, how comes whenever Zeus transformed himself into an animal or bird it was always in order to rape some gal rather than some dude?
What is the evidence for the extent to which gay relationships and sexual activity were condoned/practiced/encouraged/enforced? Not having a go, but this has always struck me as one of these "everyone knows" factoids that never seems to come with an awful lot of back-up. As it were.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
quote:Originally posted by dang65: Talking of which, did anyone see Tracy Emin on the Frost show at the weekend? She went off on one about the British Public all having a good laugh at her shite art getting burned in that warehouse fire. Knowing it's really wound her up that no one gives a fuck about her stupid tent is an excellent bonus.
I saw this and Emin's defence of modern art/artists against a thick as fucking pigshit British public was touching and - to this viewer at least! - convincing.
A useful guide for future reference:
Emin & all her doings = "gr8"
The shit-wit opinions and cock-sucky Linda Barker/Jack Vettriano-subsidising "taste" of ye Grat Braddish Pubic = laughably wrong-headed, defensive and shallow - no doubt stemming from an ingrained inferiority complex/morbid fear that our meat & two veg intellectual upbringing has left us ill-equipped to voice any opinions that might not be laughed out of court by clever Continentals and metropolitan eggheads and therefore let's take refuge in shit-flinging, shall we? That's easy and safe and there are so many people doing it there's not the remotest chance that anyone will be able to single out our individual wretchedness amid that of the generality. Yay for the burning of art we don't understand! Yay for Margaret Thatcher and pictures that look like the things they're supposed to be of!
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poetess: You can tell Sharon Eminem that I don't much care about Art that I could probably do myself, if I could be arsed.
I've never heard anyone slag off Tracey Emin without sounding really dense. I'm sure it could be done, but I've never seen it done. Tracey Emin = excellent.
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
The thing with the Emin-ent art thing is that it was all done a hundred years ago when it was actually weird and rebellious and shocking. It was proper-mad Dada, found urinals, films of ants coming out of holes in people's hands in black and white. Genuinely overturning normality, like The Beatles overturned murky pop music. If a band was to come along now and go Woooooo, I wanna hold your hand then the Great British Public would go, Yeah, woooo, fuck off. Having some dullard like Tracy Emin trying to tell us that her old bed is art is along the same lines, only it's worse because we don't get to go, Woooo even.
Posted by Boy Racer (Member # 498) on :
Thank you Thorn.
In reply to Ben. Perhaps my choice of language was poor. I did not mean to say that everyone was homosexual in Ancient Greece, but it was my understanding that homosexuality was exceptable practice at this time. However the extent of this is still a matter for conjecture, and would regardless have varied according to the time period or location within Greece.
[URL=http://myweb.lsbu.ac.uk/~stafflag/classicalera.html#Nikos Vrissimtzis]This site[/URL] gives some sources that cover the subject of Ancient Greek sexuality in conflicting ways.
[ 01.06.2004, 09:50: Message edited by: Boy Racer ]
Posted by Physic (Member # 195) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: A useful guide for future reference:
Emin & all her doings = "gr8"
The shit-wit opinions and cock-sucky Linda Barker/Jack Vettriano-subsidising "taste" of ye Grat Braddish Pubic = laughably wrong-headed
Personally when I heard about the fire and the fact that Emin's work was destroyed, I didn't snigger, but I did mentally 'shrug' and read the next article, not because I don't think it matters, simply that it doesn't matter [i]to me[i], in much the same way that if football ceased to exist tomorrow, I'd be devastated, but many other people would probably consider it barely worth a second glance, all about personal priorities isn't it? The sniggering attitude is perhaps a little harsh, given the effort which no doubt went into some of the work, but to some degree I think its entirely understandable given the arrogance of much of the art establishment in automatically ascribing any failure to properly fawn over the work of artists such as Emin or Hirst to 'ignorance', rather than allowing for the possibility that it might just not appeal to some peoples'; sense of what constitutes a work of art, which is, after all, a very individual thing surely? Personally I think it's this tendency to simply dismiss such views rather than to encourage diversity of opinion which discourages many people from taking a greater interest. I mean I enjoy plenty of art, off the wall work such as that of Chagall, Dali and Picasso's cubist works have always held a particular fascination for me, partly because of their imaginative and unorthodox approach, so it's hardly as though I ascribe to the stereotypical idea that a 'art should be a proper picture that looks like what it's meant to be', and yet I can't say that work such as Emin's holds any real interest for me at all, not because I'm ignorant, simply because it isn't to my tastes. Granted I might be in the minority, maybe as you seem to suggest most people who dismiss her work do so from a position of ignorance, but personally I not only find that hard to believe, I also think it's a cop out for artists who can't handle criticism, despite working in an industry which is entirely based on opinion and personal interpretation.
[ 01.06.2004, 10:08: Message edited by: Physic ]
Posted by Vogon Poetess (Member # 164) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: I've never heard anyone slag off Tracey Emin without sounding really dense. I'm sure it could be done, but I've never seen it done. Tracey Emin = excellent.
To be fair, I do find her stuff quite interesting.
However, I like pieces of Art to look like they were difficult to do ie cutting a sheep precisely in half and suspending it in chemicals is a bit fiddly. Anything that I reckon I could do myself, armed only with a C in GCSE Art, I am not impressed much by.
My personal loose definition of ART =
1. looks pretty 2. is meaningful and makes me "think" 3. required skill and patience in its construction
Posted by Abby (Member # 582) on :
I think people would be in less of a rush to slag of Tracy Emin's work if she wasn't so rude and obnoxious.
There is no call for rudeness! Posted by Boy Racer (Member # 498) on :
Oh fuck off!
Posted by Vogon Poetess (Member # 164) on :
Would anyone like to talk about the new Harry Potter film!
[ 01.06.2004, 10:13: Message edited by: Vogon Poetess ]
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
quote:Originally posted by dang65: The thing with the Emin-ent art thing is that it was all done a hundred years ago when it was actually weird and rebellious and shocking. It was proper-mad Dada, found urinals, films of ants coming out of holes in people's hands in black and white.
This fetishisation of a period or milieu as being particularly privileged in terms of producing culture that was somehow more genuine, authentic, original, or shocking (any of these words ought to put us immediately our guard) is nothing but a parlour game, and one particularly popular among the readers of Q Magazine for adults, I believe.
Duchamp's urinal has had a much busier afterlife as a stick to beat YBAs with than it ever did as an icon in its own right -- something I'm sure would sadden or perplex any artist worth his salt.
Posted by squirrelandgman (Member # 201) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poetess: Would anyone like to talk about the new Harry Potter film!
Yeah. Is Ian Brown good in it?
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: This fetishisation of a period or milieu as being particularly privileged in terms of producing culture that was somehow more genuine, authentic, original, or shocking is nothing but a parlour game...
The tiresome repetition is the problem I have with Tracy Emin and her like. It's been done, ages ago, it's all there in the museums, now go and do something different. Lots of artists do, and lots of artists don't, but it's when something is first done that it has it's biggest impact. That's not fetishisation, it's just chronological effect - done first, most remembered; done again and again, tiresome. Like climbing Everest, swimming the Channel, flying the Atlantic blah blah blah.
All eras have their own genuine, authentic, original or shocking cultural icons - Tracy Emin isn't ours.
Posted by 69 Comeback Elvis (Member # 9) on :
quote:squirrelandgman: Is Ian Brown good in it?
Of course he is. Bloody stupid question. Man's a genius.
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
Dang the stuff you quoted - ants crawling out of someones hand - or whatever doesn't really seem to have much to do with Tracy Emin. You keep mentioning the word 'shocking', but I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Her best stuff - like the unmade bed - isn't really shocking, or trying to shock. It's just taking something apparently mundane and showing how we leave our individual stamp on things, all the time. It's not about visceral kicks to the gut, it's about "look how much you can infer about a life from something so inconspicuous'. It doesn't - to my mind - fall under the category of found art, either. It's not really any unmade bed that she just sticks in a museum, but rather a sculpture of a bed that tells us a great deal about its owner. That, in particular, is what I find exciting and interesting and even up lifting about it.
Elsewhere, something like CV isn't really about shocking you, it uses the same trick of displaying the detritus of someone's life whilst overlaid with a chronological narrative of someone's life. So rather than just being footage of her growing up, getting older, whatever, with the voiceover, it's instead her voiceover taking it through her life and the images are kind of a still life shot of a (her?) apartment. It's like her life, everything she's done is just stamped all over the place. As I said, I really, genuinely don't see that any of that's reflected in the pieces you described, so I can't see how you can dismiss Emin's work as "been done before", least of all by citing a bunch of things that show how far removed she is from previous movements. It's definitely more than just shocking. In fact, I don't think it's really trying to be shocking in many places.
Finally, I don't think either of those pieces could just be done by anyone with GCSE level art. Especially the skill and perception involved in putting together something like CV. It's not a question of 'anyone can do it'. It's artful and it's gr9.
Posted by Raz (Member # 449) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: You are wrang, Boy Racer. As any fule kno "gay versions" of things tend to be a lot more gruelling and didactic than one might at first hope - though I definitely think existing gayness should have been retained in Troy. Particularly welcome would have been a scene in which Brad Pitt had an encounter with Patroclus in the latrines before necking a load of pills and dancing for eight hours - all the while sending bitchy texts to his ex and comparing his abs with those of the redhead in the pink crop top and flashing devil horns.
What is the evidence for the extent to which gay relationships and sexual activity were condoned/practiced/encouraged/enforced? Not having a go, but this has always struck me as one of these "everyone knows" factoids that never seems to come with an awful lot of back-up. As it were.
BEN I think Kovacs has stolen your password.
In The Iliad doesn't Achilles kill Eric Bana because Eric Bana killed his boy? I bet that wasn't in the film. Brad Pitt doesn't do bum-ups. Except with his man-wife.
O you're all talking about Tracey Emin now.
Posted by Astromariner (Member # 446) on :
Tracy Emin endeared herself to me instantly when I saw a clip of her appearing on some debate about modern art the evening she won the Turner Prize that time. She was absolutely shitfaced: alternately muttering to herself and shouting indecipherably, calling the other panel members a "bunch of wankers", apologising to her mum, and lurching off the stage to everyone's palpable relief, saying that she'd much rather be with her friends.
Also she did this good programme about The Scream once, and I'm not embarrassed to say that until she explained that the scream was coming from the landscape and the person was trying to block out the sound, it had never occured to me to look at the painting in that way. So: making a drunken fool of herself, and patiently explaining art to philistines like me = double bonus points for Emin.
[ 01.06.2004, 11:05: Message edited by: Astromariner ]
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
quote:Originally posted by dang65: The tiresome repetition is the problem I have with Tracy Emin and her like. It's been done, ages ago, it's all there in the museums, now go and do something different. Lots of artists do, and lots of artists don't, but it's when something is first done that it has it's biggest impact. That's not fetishisation, it's just chronological effect - done first, most remembered; done again and again, tiresome. Like climbing Everest, swimming the Channel, flying the Atlantic blah blah blah.
I don't see (and you haven't bothered to argue) exactly how any of the early-C20 works you mention pre-empt the art of Tracey Emin. I'd argue that the autobiographical needlework, short films and tableaux for which she's known are so different in motive, technique and execution it's difficut to see why you've chosen Un Chien Andalou etc to "prove" her unoriginality.
The bizarre metaphor of artistic achievement being like beating every fucker else to the top of that there mountain strikes me as verging on the surreal in its red-cheeked hyper-literalism.
Posted by Vogon Poetess (Member # 164) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raz: In The Iliad doesn't Achilles kill Eric Bana because Eric Bana killed his boy? I bet that wasn't in the film. Brad Pitt doesn't do bum-ups. Except with his man-wife.
O you're all talking about Tracey Emin now.
In the fillum, Achilles' boy is his COUSIN and he is so hetero he is found in a tent in bed with 2 (two) village wenches.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
O look, Thorn and me have synchronised our menses.
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: I can't see how you can dismiss Emin's work as "been done before", least of all by citing a bunch of things that show how far removed she is from previous movements. It's definitely more than just shocking. In fact, I don't think it's really trying to be shocking in many places.
It depends how precisely one defines "been done before". A drawing or collage of their own work space or living space is probably one of the first things many artists ever do. So Tracy Emin has taken the product a bit further? My reaction is, yeah, ok, no need to labour the point.
Installation art can be a lot of fun, absolutely, and so can performance art, but I don't see Tracy Emin's attempts as anything that hasn't been seen for years and years in any art centre in any city in the World. That she acts as if she's doing something that we should all be grateful for and full of praise for just seems silly.
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by dang65: It depends how precisely one defines "been done before".
Well, obviously you're defining it different from me, because you've cited a bunch of examples that had very little to do with her work. Maybe your meaning "been done before" actually translates as "has nothing in common with"?
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
I've run out of bloody time!
Posted by Raz (Member # 449) on :
quote:Originally posted by dang65: I've run out of bloody time!
Do you mean you're about to die?
Also, Thorn, you might say you really like Tracey Emin and everything, but I bet you wouldn't kiss her on the mouth.
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
I saw this yesterday and I liked it! Alot! Large chunks of the dialogue were risible, and as ben said the women characters were rubbish; but I hate women anyway, so it didn't bother me so much.
but! mostly this film seemed to be about Men doing Men Stuff. Fighting wars and shouting alot. And there was plenty of that. If Achilles wasn't fucking people up, he was either shouting at someone or nailing hot chicks. Great!
There were some really ace moments, too. Like the Murmadons (sp? who gives a fuck) storming the beach on their own. I loved the fact that they pulled up and got ripped apart by arrows and your thinking "Haha! Wankers! Bit off more than you could chew there!" and then they gether together and the shields slot together into an impregnable half shell that begins a terrifying inexorable advance up the beach.
Also great was seeing yet another film when Orlando Bloom ruins everything for everyone and then Eric Bana has to step in and sort out the mess. They should have a TV series! That would be cool. I also enjoyed the Greeks' initial attack on the city where they fuck it up really badly. That made me laugh. Idiot Greeks!
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poetess: Would anyone like to talk about the new Harry Potter film!
The films never manage to capture even a tiny bit of the suspense and tension in the books, and the children's acting can be quite painful at times. But the adults' acting is great all the way through, perfect casting for every single role. This series has single-handedly revived the great British character acting tradition like they used to have in Ealing and that.
But the one reason that everyone should see this film is for the sets. They completely dominate the whole movie and improve on the other two films (which had good sets anyway) by miles. The moving paintings, Hogwarts glued to the side of a mountain, mad architecture, Leaky Cauldron complete with wizard Ian Brown, the psychopathic Whomping Willow, the Knight Bus, even the dull suburbia at the beginning are all completely magnificent and presumably packed with details you won't notice till the tenth viewing or something.
I only see children's films, or stupid blockbusters like The Last Samurai which my son borrows off his mates, but comparing HP3 to them I'd say it was five star great.
Posted by Uber Trick (Member # 456) on :
I found myself having a random thought on Saturday when I saw the giant looming face of Harrus passing me on a bus. I looked at his scar and thought I wish they had really carved that scar into his forehead. I thought it even more on Sunday night after I had seen the film. I thought I wish they had really carved that scar into his forehead whilst saying MUST. TRY. HARDER. With each stroke of the lightening bolt.
They have now all three disappointed me, but this one the least out of the three I must say. But yes, dang is right the sets are absolutely gorgeous. And if you do want another reason to see it then the elder Weasley brothers have grown up into a vision of cute floppygingerhaired twin-ness. Made me think of a whole new meaning for the phrase Twinset and pearls. Posted by Frank (Member # 445) on :
Troy = all-gay Saving Private Ryan Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
Seriously, I can see the gay thing... but Saving Private Ryan? How... how is it similar to Saving Private Ryan, except that it's got a beach in it?
Posted by Frank (Member # 445) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: Seriously, I can see the gay thing... but Saving Private Ryan? How... how is it similar to Saving Private Ryan, except that it's got a beach in it?
No, of course it isn't really, except for that long scene of the landing on the beach, with the boys hopping off the boats and getting cut down. That, and the shot were Achilles looks down at the Greeks setting up their camp, were taking directly from Saving Private Ryan.
Well, I think so anyway.
Posted by Boy Racer (Member # 498) on :
Saw Azkaban last night.
I really enjoyed it.
I agree with dang about the acting/casting, some of the kids (particularly the background characters) are just awful, but the adult cast are almost uniformly on the money. I kept finding myself laughing as yet another actor I wasn't expecting to see turned up on screen. My only quibble with the adult cast would be Micheal Gambon as Dumbledore, who doesn't quite manage the air of genial aloofness that Richard Harris brought to the role, and doesn't replace it with anything satisfactory of his own.
The production design and art direction are, as mentioned, a great improvement on the first two HP adaptations, despite these key roles being filled almost entirely by veterans of the first two films. I was pleased to see a significant move away from the almost relentlessly warm light of the first two films towards a colder palette of blues and greys. The amount of texture on screen also seems to have increased, the design seems grubbier and less polished than in the previous films, and the level of detail in the set dressing is beautiful.
What impressed me most though was the way film techniques are used alongside digital effects to create not just visual texture but emotional effects and general tone. I don't think this change can be put down to the change of tone in the material alone, but also to the change of director.
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