posted
My wife and I watched Jesus Camp over the weekend. For those of you who might not have seen this film, it's basically about a bunch of kids from the midwest US who attend an evangelical bible camp in South Dakota. I was raised in a strict evangelical Christian household, and even though I renounced my faith many years ago, I learned just how well my early training has stayed with me.
There was a scene in the film where a mother was homeschooling her children. She lead them in the Pledge to the Bible, and after the first few words were uttered, I found myself automatically joining in with the on-screen family until it was completed. The words just came out of my mouth unintentionally. Like I was some sort of robot on auto-pilot.
Has this ever happened to you? Was there something you learned as a child that you had completely forgotten, only to learn that you really didn't entirely forget?
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I refused to say it in school because of the "One nation under God" line.
However, some crap documentary about schools in America or something and it was being recited and I found myself doing it.
"Star Spangled Banner" can get me to 'sing it' as well if I hear it in the background.
Based on this anecdotal evidence, it is fair to say that as Americans, we are brainwashed to follow the herd whether it be the "government" or "god".
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One time when I was back staying with my folks someone put on the soundtrack to misogynistic rollerskating musical Starlight Express and I was astonished to discover that - twenty years later - I still knew all the words. I didn't find myself mouthing along involuntarily though, like some kind of freak. That's just weird.
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quote:Originally posted by Nathan Bleak: I didn't find myself mouthing along involuntarily though, like some kind of freak. That's just weird.
I agree, which is why I posted the thread to begin with. It's even worse if you know the Pledge to the Bible:
I pledge allegiance to the Bible, God's Holy Word, I will make it a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path and will hide its words in my heart that I might not sin against God.Posts: 7436
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Sabian, out of topic but that's one of the things I've always liked about America. That you have this Pledge of Allegiance and that you all do know the Star Spangled Banner. I like that Americans are very patriotic. Flags everywhere etc. You can't hang a flag out in the UK these days for fear of upsetting some ethnic minority.
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quote:Originally posted by Esmeralda: Sabian, out of topic but that's one of the things I've always liked about America. That you have this Pledge of Allegiance and that you all do know the Star Spangled Banner. I like that Americans are very patriotic. Flags everywhere etc. You can't hang a flag out in the UK these days for fear of upsetting some ethnic minority.
quote:Originally posted by Esmeralda: that's one of the things I've always liked about America. That you have this Pledge of Allegiance and that you all do know the Star Spangled Banner. I like that Americans are very patriotic. Flags everywhere etc.
This America that you speak of...have you ever actually visited it? Are the streets really paved in gold as the legends of old tell us?
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quote:Originally posted by Esmeralda: I like that Americans are very patriotic. Flags everywhere etc.
There's a difference between being patriotic and being Nationalistic.
Having pride in one's country is a good thing, literally thinking that you are God's chosen isn't.
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See, I don't even get this. I can't understand taking pride in anything that isn't your own achievement, and a country is a pretty big thing. I might do things to make my life better, for me and thos around me, and that might be adding to the overall quality of life in my country, it actually probably doesn't. Things just happen, guided by those with far more influence than me. And if my country does something notable I don't really feel, "Oh that was me going that extra yard at work last week. That really paid off. If it wasn't for me we wouldn't have won that silver medal in the Commonewealth Games." I just don't get it. Pride. Patriotism. Nationalism.
posted
Indeed. It's like football supporters. 'We did really well last week.' No. You were on the sofa with a bowl of Tesco's dorito-style tortilla chips and some Stella.
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Not to be flippant though BM, but that is to be expected of a British person.
British people, by and large, are embarrassed (for lack of better word) of their country and by extension of that embarrassment, you (as a country) do little to make things better.
By no means am I saying that ALL the lobbies in DC are a good force, but by and large, if something isn't liked in Government it gets fixed in the States... Here, people will throw a strop through London for an afternoon then all meet up at Prét for a latté and some sashimi changing nothing but perhaps BBC's headline news for a bit.
This also goes for things like sporting events... You applaud the mediocre... Henmen is still a 'hero' to many even though he's done sweet fuck all. England still gets ticker tape parades when the come home after losing in the 1/4 finals. Whereas back home, if you didn't win, you may as well have not bothered showing up.
Taking pride in your country and being happy for the good things, taking responsibility for the bad things, and trying to fix things that are broken is patriotic and good. Americans takes pride in their country and are happy for the good things, but they blame others for the bad things and expect others to fix what's broken if they even admit it's broken in the first place, which is why I think they are Nationalistic.
I know I'm painting with a broad brush, but I do so for simplicity's sake... There are exceptions of course, but having lived and experienced both sides of the 'divide', British indifference is worse than America's nationalism, IMO. Why? Yes, America is damaging itself and it's foreign policy but once a responsible administration takes power and helps stem the bleed that started with Bush there *could* be salvation... America's problem is acute whilst Britain's is chronic.
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quote:Originally posted by herbs: Indeed. It's like football supporters. 'We did really well last week.' No. You were on the sofa with a bowl of Tesco's dorito-style tortilla chips and some Stella.
I would tend to disagree with this - my football team, West Ham United, I feel is a part of me. It has been such a major part of my life, bringing me heartache more often than pleasure, but those moments are things I will never forget, so I tend to use the 'we' when talking amongst other passionate supporters - I certainly never had the skill, but we do our bit - we follow them when we can, going to matches, cheering them on, giving all the moral support we can, and I am sure there are few players who would deny that the fanbase is a critical part of the whole package. We are all in it together - without us the clubs would discontinue to exist after all, and feeling a part of a club, no matter how insignificant as a single supporter, is still a critical part of any club.
quote:Originally posted by sabian: Not to be flippant though BM, but that is to be expected of a British person.
British people, by and large, are embarrassed (for lack of better word) of their country and by extension of that embarrassment, you (as a country) do little to make things better.
By no means am I saying that ALL the lobbies in DC are a good force, but by and large, if something isn't liked in Government it gets fixed in the States... Here, people will throw a strop through London for an afternoon then all meet up at Prét for a latté and some sashimi changing nothing but perhaps BBC's headline news for a bit.
This also goes for things like sporting events... You applaud the mediocre... Henmen is still a 'hero' to many even though he's done sweet fuck all. England still gets ticker tape parades when the come home after losing in the 1/4 finals. Whereas back home, if you didn't win, you may as well have not bothered showing up.
Taking pride in your country and being happy for the good things, taking responsibility for the bad things, and trying to fix things that are broken is patriotic and good. Americans takes pride in their country and are happy for the good things, but they blame others for the bad things and expect others to fix what's broken if they even admit it's broken in the first place, which is why I think they are Nationalistic.
I know I'm painting with a broad brush, but I do so for simplicity's sake... There are exceptions of course, but having lived and experienced both sides of the 'divide', British indifference is worse than America's nationalism, IMO. Why? Yes, America is damaging itself and it's foreign policy but once a responsible administration takes power and helps stem the bleed that started with Bush there *could* be salvation... America's problem is acute whilst Britain's is chronic.
Hold on, most Brits are embarassed of their country, yet they applaud their failed sportsmen when they return home? Any other examples of our red-faced embarassment? Our shame at being British?
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: See, I don't even get this. I can't understand taking pride in anything that isn't your own achievement
A lot of people are very confused about this issue, as highlighted by the recent Slave Trade anniversary commemorations:
If you are British you should take enormous self-righteous pride in the fact that your country honorably and humanely abolished the horrific trans-Atlantic Slave Trade.
However, just because you are British doesn't mean the Slave Trade had anything to do with you, and why should you feel at all guilty about it anyway, those were other people, ages ago, and they weren't even our ancestors so shu'up, and anyway I saw Sharon Wilberforce round the back of the bike sheds giving Darren Wilson a blowy... What?
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posted
I would take issue with a few of your points there, Sabian.
Are you sure England (football) got a ticker tape parade after any of their recent tournaments? A media scrum at the airport on arriving back certainly, but nothing more as I recall.
To be fair to him, Henman was a top 10 ranked player for a few seasons- not ever likely to get to #1, and burdened by having a lot of annoying middle class fans, but technically a bit better than "mediocre".
Something I am proud of is this country's brilliant record in the Paralympics. The USA was conspicuous by its absence in the last of these events, for a wealthy country to obviously not be bothering to devote any kind of funding to disability sports is pretty fucking shameful.
I find most flag-waving horribly naive and tacky. Italy seemed to strike a nice balance- most "official" buildings in Milan had the national flag up, but always alongside the EU or sometimes UN flag as a reminder of the larger global context. I can't imagine living in a street where everyone has a massive Union Jack outside their house.
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I have never pretended to be as astute as many of the people on here so please forgive my stilted vocabulary... I do hope that my 'point' wasn't lost on the wrong usage of 'embarrassed'.
Either that, or the applauding of failure is a backhanded thank you for making Joe Bloggs feel like he's better than someone for once!
Take your pick!
(just to say as well, this isn't a "America is better than Britain" rant... Just making and observation based on the fact that live and have lived on both sides of the ocean and am not forming opinion based on ITV media coverage and back episodes of Friends)
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quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poetess: Are you sure England (football) got a ticker tape parade after any of their recent tournaments? A media scrum at the airport on arriving back certainly, but nothing more as I recall.
Embellishment and exaggeration on my part, but they were still celebrated and Sven vilified... Calling for his head and to bring Mcfaden or whatever in as the new coach cuz surely our boys wouldn't have done so badly if they weren't being led by some Ikea loving foreigner!
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poetess: To be fair to him, Henman was a top 10 ranked player for a few seasons- not ever likely to get to #1, and burdened by having a lot of annoying middle class fans, but technically a bit better than "mediocre".
Nothing against Henman as, yes, he was ranked but I was always astounded by the fervour that surrounded any tournament he was in... "Is this the one where Henmen wins?" Next day, "Nope, but there's always next year Henny!!"
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poetess: Something I am proud of is this country's brilliant record in the Paralympics. The USA was conspicuous by its absence in the last of these events, for a wealthy country to obviously not be bothering to devote any kind of funding to disability sports is pretty fucking shameful.
America has always favoured the 'gifted' over the 'challenged'.. I mean we put Pro Basketball players in our Olympics team for fuck sake! "Yeah, let's put 8 foot giants in the Olympics who earn $8million a season to play 6 foot giants from little mountain towns of Poland who had a bushel basket and a cabbage to practice with."
If anything, our sportsmanship is nothing to be applauded, and that goes hand and hand with the Paralympics... Funding the handicapped would take away from 'proper' athletes.
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poetess: I find most flag-waving horribly naive and tacky. Italy seemed to strike a nice balance- most "official" buildings in Milan had the national flag up, but always alongside the EU or sometimes UN flag as a reminder of the larger global context. I can't imagine living in a street where everyone has a massive Union Jack outside their house.
Again, I can't agree more... I find the whole flag waving thing idiotic and ignorant... Though nothing can surpass the wearing of the flag:
Have pride in your country doesn't mean having to shout it from the roof tops or shove it down other's throats!
[ 17.04.2007, 07:55: Message edited by: sabian ]
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Having pride in one's country is a good thing, literally thinking that you are God's chosen isn't.
Mmm hmm.
I've never liked the 'in God we trust' script written on the top of your money. 'Cos I don't, personally. And I was a little narked a couple of years back when I was on holiday and had American dollars to spend and by implication was a God Botherer.
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask:
Hold on, most Brits are embarassed of their country, yet they applaud their failed sportsmen when they return home? Any other examples of our red-faced embarassment? Our shame at being British?
I'm not interested in sport so don't applaud my country's sportsmen...
I also try to pretend, in a certain blase way, that I'm not British because of the mix of blood of different ethnic origins in my family. But then, most of the British are mongrels. Probably apart from those living near Wales or Scotland.
quote:Originally posted by dang65: and anyway I saw Sharon Wilberforce round the back of the bike sheds giving Darren Wilson a blowy... What?
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Sabian, I'd agree that there probably exists in the consciousness of every Briton the knowledge that we are not as Great as we were. Everyone knows we had a vast Empire, that we ran tings. We still, I suppose, cling to shreds of that. It's a source of some pride, to many, that English is such a widely used language, but while we hold the patent for the language the reason everyone speaks it is America, of course. There's parliamentary democracy, I suppose. Our contribution to the arts. Shakespeare. Electric light. Telephones. TV. There's our special relationship with America. Our heroic role in WWII. But, you know, I think all that stuff's great, but I don't expect any credit for it. Lots of Brits do, though, I guess. You can't move for Union Jacks and, increasingly, St George's crosses when the World Cup or something similar is on. Brits abroad don't seem very reticent about letting the locals know where they come from, when they're demanding directions to the Dirty Den Bar for their John Smiths and their Full English.
Brits embarassed? Ashamed? Reluctant to identify themselves as British? Unsure what Britishness is and how to demonstrate it?
What is it you've seen about Brits and their patriotism or nationalism that you can't quite put your finger on? Can you describe it? Because, you are, as you ponted out, in a uniquely privileged position to comment. And it's interesting. So tell us.
quote:Originally posted by sabian: Embellishment and exaggeration on my part, but they were still celebrated and Sven vilified...
Nope, they were ritually hung, drawn and quartered by the press just the asme as Eriksson was, the only one who got any kind of praise was Hargreaves, and that was mainly because so many people had belittled him pre-tournament and therefore were surprised when he was one of our better performers. The rest were roundly mocked and abused by almost any paper you cared to read, and are still being criticised for it now in some cases.
quote: Nothing against Henman as, yes, he was ranked but I was always astounded by the fervour that surrounded any tournament he was in... "Is this the one where Henmen wins?" Next day, "Nope, but there's always next year Henny!!"
Were you really surprised by this? Our only halfway decent tennis player (Rusedski was never going to get the same adoration as he simply wasn't 'one of us'), is it really anything other than completely predictable that a desperate optimism would prevail every time he appeared in a major tournament? Besides, as has been mentioned to death before, we have a history of preferring plucky losers to the genuinely successful in this country.
quote: If anything, our sportsmanship is nothing to be applauded
Yep, I can still remember the disgraceful behaviour of the US Ryder Cup team a few years back, their man sinks his final putt and they all go trampling all over the green, whooping and hollering, as though they'd just won, when in fact the Europe team player was waiting to take his putt, a putt which would have tied the game had he sunk it. If there was any justice a one stroke penalty would have been incurred, but instead it was just put down to 'high spirits'.
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It is strange to see some anti-Ameircan posts on this site now. I can remember after 9/11 on Seethru everyone here seemed behind America in its fight against terrorism. What is needed is not an end to the war on terrorism but a re-alignment of it, so that it doesn't alienate the very people it is intended to protect. Obviously things like Gaunatamou Bay prison camp need to be reformed aswell as reform of the Patriot Act. But there is still a major threat to the free world for international terrorism and still a need for a concerted offort to defeat it. In Britain for example last year the security forces admitted that they had thwarted dozens of attempted terrorist attacks. The 7/7 bombings having slipped through the net.
quote:There's a difference between being patriotic and being Nationalistic.
Having pride in one's country is a good thing, literally thinking that you are God's chosen isn't.
I don't disagree. I believe my post did say Patriotic and not Nationalistic. I think Americans have pride in their country which is a good thing IMO. That doesn't mean I sympathise with them in any way or agree with their policies.
And BM, it says quite clearly to the side my poster name - Esmeralda. Sorry if it wasn't clear and you had to ask who I was. Try shifting your eyes slightly to the left next time.
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quote:This America that you speak of...have you ever actually visited it?
I've visited the USA many times. Besides, I'm not sure what you mean by your question? The America I speak of?? I said Americans who know the Pledge and the national anthem - surely that's most of them? Don't they know them in your America?
quote:Are the streets really paved in gold as the legends of old tell us?
Isn't it London whose streets are supposed to be paved in gold?
quote:Long, long time ago there lived a poor boy called Dick Whittington. He had no mother and no father, and often nothing to eat. One day he heard of the great city of London, where, said everyone, even the streets were paved with gold. Dick decided to go to London to seek his fortune.
London was a big and busy city, full of people both rich and poor. But Dick could not find any streets that were paved with gold. Tired, cold and hungry he fell asleep on the steps of a great house. This house belonged to Mr. Fitzwarren, a rich merchant, who was also a good and generous man. He took Dick into his house, and gave him work as a scullery boy.
quote:Originally posted by Esmeralda: I've visited the USA many times. Besides, I'm not sure what you mean by your question? The America I speak of?? I said Americans who know the Pledge and the national anthem - surely that's most of them? Don't they know them in your America?
It's just that the part of America I've always lived in (the northeast) isn't likely to wave the flag, recite the Pledge, or spontaneously break into a chorus of the national anthem. I think you must have visited either the southern or midwestern sections of my country.
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